Graham Stack: Inside The Invincibles Dressing Room & Why The Goalkeepers’ Union Is A Lie

Does the Goalkeepers’ Union actually exist?

Former Arsenal goalkeeper Graham Stack says it doesn’t.

In this episode, Stack shares the ruthless reality of competing for the No.1 shirt - why goalkeepers can’t afford to be nice, why you secretly want the other keeper to fail, and the brutal mentality required to survive in professional football.

Stack came through the Arsenal academy and was part of the club during the legendary Invincibles era, training with David Seaman and sharing a dressing room with Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Patrick Vieira and Jens Lehmann.

From cleaning Seaman’s boots as a youngster to making his Arsenal debut at Highbury, Stack reveals the behind-the-scenes culture inside one of football’s greatest teams.

He also opens up about life after Arsenal - playing across Europe, working under Edgar Davids at Barnet, and his latest project helping former footballers rediscover purpose through charity boxing events.

This is an honest conversation about goalkeeping, competition, and the mentality it takes to make it in football.

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Transcript

Graham Stack joins Beyond The Box

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Our guest today is someone who's experienced football from just about every angle.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

That was clearly Dave's uh Dave Simmer's boots at the time as well. I felt I was privileged to be able to make sure his boots were tied in.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

A former Arsenal Academy product, an invincible era squad member.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

They have some big characters in there. Like Patrick, Sol, Dennis, Thierry. It was like the maddest feeling ever. Like going to games, go to Old Trafford, knowing that you're not going to lose. From title winning dressing rooms to survival in the lower leagues. You just think that journey is going to go forever, naively. And when it gets cut short, it's quite hard for us to swallow.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

He now brings ex-players together, raising money for charity and creating an event with a real purpose behind it.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

As we've sort of coming to the end of their career and leading football, some of the boys are finding it tough. I wanted to try and come up with a concept where we could all get involved, all going on this journey together to ultimately raise money.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Welcome, Graham Stack, to the Beyond the Box podcast. Welcome, mate.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Very well, thank you. How are you?

From Arsenal Academy to Professional Football

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Yeah, I'm good, mate. I'm good. Welcome to the studio. Welcome. Um how you been?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I've been very well.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

I've been busy. Uh it's a same studio, by the way. It's nice, isn't it? Yeah, they've gone done a really good job, haven't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

And built it up over time, yeah. It started off as shambles, an absolute shambles, but we've got there eventually, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, my boy, my boy Affi will be gutted because he wanted to come desperately and take a day off school. But he's uh I thought it'd be best uh best not to do that and upset my partner. So uh he hasn't come, but blind me when I've walked in and I've seen all his gloves, it'd be uh it'd be in his element, be gutted. Did he wear does he wear one glove? He does, yeah. He loves him, absolutely loves him. Well no, I do because Marles looks after me. Miles sends me a couple couple of pairs every now and again, so and they are the best gloves. Uh so yeah, he uh he loves them.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Wicked. I want to start this episode by talking about your time at Arsenal because that's probably what you're you're best known for in your playing career. Tell tell people about your time at Arsenal, how you were at the club, how you grew your career there, and take us through your journey working with Yens and all the experiences that you had there.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah, so it's an incredible journey, really. I've I mean I started off at the club as a nine-year-old uh and initially went in as I was I was on trial at the club as a midfielder. So I was training at the JVC Centre. Uh Pat Rice and George Armstrong were my sort of youth team managers at the time. And then I went on a Bob Wilson uh sort of camp. It was a it was an overnight camp, so it was a residential, it was in Potter's Bar. So I went there for for the week and done extremely well. Probably about 100 goalies, if not more. Uh Hans Hagers was one of the coaches, Alex Welsh was one of the coaches, Perry Sucklin, uh, and obviously Bob Wilson himself. Uh done really well. And I was uh voted best goalkeeper of the camp. Uh and I was presented a signed David Seaman shirt uh on a Friday uh in front of everyone, all the coaches, all the all the goalkeepers, and my parents. And uh it was after it was the the green JVC one, by the way, which is like I remember it, yeah, yeah iconic. Yeah, iconic, yeah. So which I still have. Uh and after I was presented with the award from Bob, he said I need to have a chat with your mum and dad. So I said, Yeah, no problem. Went over and Bob said uh to my dad, he said, Look, your son's got real potential. You know, we think he's we we'd love to get him into Arsenal. My dad was like, he's at Arsenal. He was like, Oh, he didn't mention that. He's like, Yeah, but he's in he's he's playing midfield. So Bob went okay, let me have a chat with the club and let me see what we can arrange. So I actually sort of sort of it was like a bit in a head. I was like playing out on pitch for like a couple of weeks and I was getting goal for a couple of weeks and got to the point where I had to make a decision. I think when Bob Wilson sort of gives you an inkling that you've got a chance of becoming a goalkeeper, I think that's advice uh that you probably you don't want to turn down. So that was the start of my journey, really. I went into Arsenal, I signed school boy forbs off the back of that, sort of get to the age of 16, 18, apprenticeship, YTS. Uh found myself in probably the the best youth team in the country. Uh there's no doubt. But you my youth team, it was us and West Ham, to be fair. Uh, I think West Ham won the youth cup the previous year, we won it back to back after that. Um, I played in one of them years, but we had the likes of Jay Bothroyd, David Noble, Steve Sidwell, Jerome Thomas, Jermaine Pennant, Jeremy Ledier, Morris Folk, Ben Chorley. We had loads. Uh, so blessed to be in such a great team. Youth team coaches are incredible. Uh, we had uh Neil Banfield, uh, we had Liam Brady was our youth youth development officer, and obviously Bob Wilson was our goalkeeping coach. So, yeah, blessed with quality players and and obviously great coaches. So, yeah, one of the youth cup, and then after that, you sort of start to take it what it starts to get serious because you're now thinking next move for me is obviously trying to sign a professional contract. Even at sort of 16, I was like, I was training with David Seaman on like a day-to-day basis. It was like me, Dave, Alex Malinga, Richard Wright, Stuart Taylor, John Lukic. I was clearly Dave's uh Dave Seaman's boots at the time as well, because that was part parcel of one of your roles as a big book.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Just the one set? Just the one set?

Arsenal Debut at Highbury & Saving a Penalty

SPEAKER_02 5:19

No, he had a couple, yeah, he had a couple, and uh I do my very, very best to make sure they were the best boots in the boot room because that was just it was Dave Seaman, he was one of my adults, and I felt I was privileged to be able to make sure his boots were tidy and nice and clean for the weekend. So uh, so yeah, that was yeah, that that was off well, what a blessing really to be able to sort of gain knowledge and and not just like verbally when you were talking about goalkeeping, but just actually visually just being able to be on the same training ground day in, day out, working with with the best in the country, arguably the best around the world. So that was a massive help for me uh to get advice as well, uh, you know, off the pitch about that. Sometimes they would give me advice about being a young goalkeeper and what I need to be doing better, and uh and bits and pieces, which which is always very valuable. And then I would also get opportunities to train with the first team. So even as a young kid, what I'm 16, 17, I'd yeah, I'd get opportunities to go with the first team and train with them, which uh obviously the the calibre of players that were involved at the time were were out of this world, you know. We're talking full international World Cup winners, England International's captain. So so yeah, so very, very fortunate. Um, I worked extremely hard as a young lad. I would probably go as far as I say as I probably wasn't the most talented um if I was to compare myself with somebody like Stuart Taylor. Stuart Taylor had all the tools to be a top, top goalie, like in my opinion, probably should have played for England. Um, but I always felt as though I had a mindset and probably different qualities in terms of say lunacy, but I was certainly I sort of I saw myself as a leader as from a very young age, good communicator. I thought it was very vocal, I thought I saw I had presence around the goal, uh, but not just that, but in around the change room and around the training ground. So um they they were definitely qualities that put me in a good place sort of moving forward when I was training with senior pros because I felt confident, I felt as you know I could hold my own. Uh and then yeah, it just progressed really, and then I signed my first pro deal uh and then found my way into the first team after a year or so, a couple of you know, it was a lone move. I went to Millwall uh in the championship. My very first lone move was when I was 19. Went over to Belgium, played for a club called Bivelen, uh, just outside Antwerp, played with Yeah Torre, Colo Torre. Uh, and it was me, Stephen Sidwell, John Halls, and Liam Chilvers, who were all academy products at the time that had come through at Arsenal. And it was from the advice of Arson, really. Arson sort of sat me down and said, Look, opportunities will be limited here rather than playing Academy football, uh reserve football. This would be a great opportunity for you to go and test yourself in a different environment, different culture, with different coaches, have got different ideas and philosophies, different language, you know, so many things that just were standing out to me, going, Well, this is a no-brainer, I've got to go and take this experience. So I went over there, absolutely loved it. Played teams like Andelette, Club Rouge, Standard Liege, all were in the Champions League at the time. I was like 19. Um, and actually done really well over there uh while I was there. Yeah, there was when you play abroad, you get interest from crazy countries like there was people from like Galatashari, Fenabarci there week in, week out, and you know, buying Munich, Dortmund, because it was like close to where they sort of where they would be based. And I think they were coming to probably look at a lot of the Ivorian boys that we had in the had in the team at the time. So I always felt as though that was an opportunity for me to shine uh and put myself in a position where people would take notice. So yeah, an incredible experience. Uh all my low moves really have been beneficial for me, uh, not just for reasons on the pitch, but to grow up a little bit outside of football as well. So yeah, and then after some uh yeah, after some sacrifices, some loan moves, it's not always easy going on alone as a kid. And I say a kid, I was 19, but you know, that that's that's living on your own, that's fed it for yourself, that's not having any family or friends around, that's making your own decisions and having to live by them. Uh so when I got back from my loan moves, I felt I was in a much better place. I felt I'd grown up and matured and felt as though the time was right really now for me to try and push uh and get into the Arsenal first team. And then I was given an opportunity uh in the League Cup, uh, which was the Carling Cup at the time. Um I was I I felt leading up to the game, I thought I'd get an opportunity. So it was me, Jens Lehman, Rami Shaban, Stuart Taylor. Um, I'd been involved with the first team and on the squad for I couldn't say how many games, but it was quite a few games before the actual because we came in later, obviously, because because we were in the Champions League and stuff. So uh and then I had a chat with Arsenal, he said, Look, I want to give you the opportunity to play, I think you deserve it. And I was like, Wow, okay, highbree, debut. So we played Rotherham. I had two coach loads of people that uh came from my pub to come and watch because I was living in a pub at the time. They had flags, my mum had t-shirts made up with my face on it, my name on the back, and yeah, it was all quite a lot of hype around it, um, which was nice because it was it was almost my dream to play for Arsenal, play at Highbury, walk out under the lights on a Tuesday. All right, you wouldn't have had Rotherham down as your first game, but it didn't matter. Uh and what a debut, it was like it makes me just like tingle now because it was like most amazing day. You could you just couldn't write. If it was if it was a film, you would have said it was too corny, like that's too scripted. But I ended up uh I ended up having a really good game. Uh, we were 1-0 up, played extremely well in the game, conceded really late on. Uh, Darren Byfield scored, went to extra time, uh, ended up going to pens, uh, saved a pen. I think it might have saved the first or second pen. And then it went back round and I had to take a pen. I scored a pen and then we won the game. So to make my debut at Arsenal, uh and score. Score and the goalie. Score and save a penalty on my debut.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

So what was better scoring or saving a penalty?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Do you know what? That's a that's a great question. Do you know what? Uh it would be really hard to say. I just never ever thought in a million years I'd be taking a penalty for Arsenal. So I think it was more of an element of surprise. Uh, I actually felt less pressure taking it than I did having to save one because I was expected to save him, but taking one actually the expectations were probably lowered. Uh, but I felt extremely confident in taking one, scored. Uh, and then we ended up getting to the semi-finals that year of the of the League Cup. I played in every round. Uh, we lost to Borough over two legs. Um yeah, and then sort of that sort of first team journey come to an end in terms of playing. But but I was involved for the whole season of the Invincibles, and you know, just even looking back at that, it's not until really when your career comes to an end that you sort of you take stock of things and you go, wow, I didn't actually realise what was going on in my life at the time. Soul Campbell, Carnu, Burkamp, Henri, yeah, right, Ashley Cole, going like, wow. But that was just the norm. So it was kind of not a shame I didn't embrace it because I think I did, but you just think that journey is gonna go forever, uh, naively, and when that gets cut short, it's it's quite a hard, yeah, quite a hard pill to swallow. But but listen, I loved it there. I love the club to pieces, uh, got some unbelievable memories there, and still got loads of friends uh from you know from my times at Arsenal when I'm you know in the youth team all the way through to the first team. So yeah, very special time of my life uh my football career when I look back on there.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I've got a couple questions. First of all, I've noticed every goalkeeper we've had in was an out-on-pitch player. Yeah, me and you. Because you were an out-on-pitch player as well. Yeah, I was a striker, mate. Yeah, terrible one, but I was a striker.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yeah, same as me, right? I think that's gonna happen more and more.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, so what made you go into goalkeeping? What why why that?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

It was by default, really, because because we lived in a pub, my parents didn't really want me being in the pub during the school holidays, and it wasn't like we didn't fight I I had done like multi-sport camps before, I didn't really like it, I just wanted to play football. So, yeah, we saw this advertised basically. It was in Potter's Bikes, miles away, but it was residential as well, so it was good for me to be out of the pub, so not in the pub for five days, like five days during the half term. So, yeah, through default, really I went on it and yeah, done, yeah, obviously done well. So, yeah, so that's all that's where that started.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

And how did you feel before your debut? I noticed you used the word opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

I was excited, I was I was obviously nervous going into it, that goes without saying, but yeah, I was excited, but I didn't want to let I didn't want to let my family down really this which was a bit crazy really because I knew the sacrifices that they had made for me to get to that position, and that there was a lot of riding on that, and there was a lot of friends there watching it as well. So, but I I think I've always done better under pressure anyway, so yeah, it's crazy. I I changed my gloves again, just schoolboy error, really. So I was wearing a different pair of gloves, uh, and I got them out of the packet for the that for the game, and it was obviously chucking it down with rain tuesday. I remember in the warm up, I couldn't catch a thing, and the thing was just like flying through my gloves, and I was like, What have I done here? I didn't have any spare gloves, so I was like trying to rub it with a towel to try and get that like that that shine, that, that, that sheen off the glove. Uh, so I was going into the glove, I'm paranoid about the first shot. Um, and I think someone had hit one and it skidded on the ground right in front of me, and I held it and I was like, right, that'll settle me down a little bit. But yeah, I've never done that again. Uh unless I've always told myself you can't just get about the rapper, you have to break a will a little bit. Yeah, unless it's summer. Unless it's summer, unless it's humming a beautiful, yeah. That's very true.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

Yeah. You you obviously had an unbelievable youth team, and you mentioned some of the players that you played with, like Jay Bothroyd, Steve Sibwell, being coached by Neil Banfield, who's obviously gone on to have a very, very successful coaching career, Steven Hidge, Arsenal, QPR, etc. How did those moments in that youth team prepare you to walk into that senior men's environment? Because I feel like the transition now between youth team football and first team football, there's a there's probably a bigger gulf now because you don't get that grounding in youth team football like you did back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Do you know what? It's like we were spoken to a treated like adults, and we had to behave like adults, and there was no there was no attitude, there was no ego, there was no answering back, there was no, you know, even I see body language now with young people, like young players, and it drives me mad. I just I find it hard to watch. There was a real respect that we had for our coaches, it was too Don Howard been to a World Cup. It's like I could not respect this man and what he says. Uh so I think that's changed a lot, and it saddens me a little bit. Maybe power's been taken away from coaches, possibly. Maybe the attitude of players has changed. I think there's a probably a bit of both, but but yeah, I think we were very respectful at my age group, and we listened, we were like sponges because we were we didn't think we knew the answers. We knew we were still trying to find them, and who you know, why would you not listen to sort of the best coaches in the country? It'd be crazy not to. So, yes, we had a great team, but we were coached properly, and but more important, I think we were managed properly. Uh, because we listen, we had some characters and that changed on them. Um you being one of them, me being one of them, that you would have to manage properly, you know. We you know, even younger lads like David Bentley, character, Jermaine Pennant had a character, you know, could be a bit aloof at times, but sometimes might have had to be reined in. But but coaches were able to do that, and I think by giving them that power, I think that was really important. And without them having that, we probably wouldn't have had the success we did. Because you do, I think you do need that. It's important to have that discipline uh and almost know where that where the line is, uh, which we did in our youth team, but but yeah, what youth team? I think you've only got to go through it by name and find out who they've played for England Caps, Champions League games, yeah. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

See, I think I think the grounding that you get as a YTS is really important. So like even when I was at Wickham, I used to clean Matty Ingram's boots and Martin's boots, so like goalie coach, the goalies. Do you think players now are losing out on that education? Because that's something that they don't, I think I don't think they have to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah, no, they don't. Uh yeah, I don't know why that is. I don't know why that is. I j I I think it is a good ground enough, it keeps them humble. I think it's I I didn't see it as a chore though. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Like I actually You said the word privilege, it's a privilege, right? You said it's a privilege to keep it.

Learning From David Seaman & Arsenal Goalkeepers

SPEAKER_02 17:45

I did, I well I thought it was, I generally did, because like, but it was like it was it was the banner we had when we were all doing it, like it's freezing, like it's chucking it down with rain, you're trying not to get their boots wet, you're like hovered over the boots, and no water gets in it, like you're hanging it up, you've got hair dryers out, it's because you just don't want to disappoint the first team. Uh, and then at Christmas, you know, you get an envelope with a hundred quid in it, or in Dave's case, 250 quid. Well, all the other lads were like they were gutted because I had a big fat one of though at the end of the day, and all the others like got away with like 50 pounds, 100 pounds. So, but it wasn't even it wasn't even a bat of the money, it was just the whole, like, like I'm I'm not, I'm actually this ain't a chore for me, I'm quite enjoying this. Uh, and it was the and it and it was a satisfaction you got at the end of it. That sounds crazy, but if like if you'd done well at the weekend, you felt a small part you'd played in that, uh small as that might be. But um, but yeah, I think I think certain things have changed for the worse. I must say that in terms of the way these academy players uh maybe get too much. A lot of the stuff is brilliant in terms of like the psychology stuff behind it for young players. Uh, they've got someone to reach out to and sit down, whether that's a mentor or whoever that might be, sort of the education, probably better than what it was, you know, when when I was when I was coming through the strength and conditioning, the an you know, the uh the analytical side of the game, the data side of the game. How important is that at that age? I I think there's yeah, I think that's a conversation to be had. I think there's so many different opinions. Uh, and how much time is actually spent doing things away from the training picks that or away from the gym, where actually I think probably gone too far uh in some respects now, and I think we've come away from what what what made young players great, and that's building character, building personality, building resilience. Uh and and I and I think young players have started to lose that.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

That's the word I was looking for, resilience, building resilience. The resilience building is one of the key traits that you need to be a pro, right? Resilience.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

And even more so, so yeah, resilience is important for any player, but for a goalkeeper, I think it's so important because when you face adversity and you struggle to find form, or you you know how do you deal with failure, how do you deal with disappointment? I think if you're not resilient, you're not strong, you you will never ever get to the get to the next bit or get to the top. I think it's so important as a goalkeeper to have that as a quality.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So you said earlier that one of your key strengths was your mindset. Yeah. How did you build your mindset and what does mindset mean?

SPEAKER_02 20:25

So mindset for me was simple. I just outwork everyone else. But that would go back to the running in pre-season. Like goalies at the back, I don't believe in that. Why can't the goalies be up near the front? Like that's what I'm trying to explain to my son now. But but it there's a bit of a stigma and a bit of a stereotype that goalies shouldn't be shouldn't be anywhere near the front. Well, I think they should be, and I also think that with all the speed stuff and the power stuff, because that's what we're based on. We're based on speed and power. So why are goalies not up the top where they should be? Um, but for me, the running pre-season was a mindset thing, it was a psych, yeah, it was a psychological thing because it was hard. So I think you're being tested, not not so much at uh at where you're coming, but are you digging in? Like, do you want to get to the top? Do you want to finish in the top three? Uh and when when things get tough sometimes, I think you work a lot of people out. And that's what I've done as a coach. I would always make the goalkeepers run, not make the goalies run, but I would put sessions on that would involve something that would be take them to another place mentally, and I would look to see how they would deal with it. And I think that set the tone for me a little bit to say, not sure, looks great in a goal, but has he got that next next bit, which is we which which we all know is gonna be key. So there were always little tests I put in. Then I'd say, What are we running for? Why are we running? And and I would say, Well, you're running, you're I wanna I wanna see, I wanna see what you got.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

I really like, I really like that. I think you have to show that mentality, you've got to be a little bit different, and it's test is you're testing someone, aren't you? You're testing what their character's like, yeah, you're testing their expectations where you're going, right? You're gonna do a run, and how how do you react to that? Does your head go down? That you're like, oh, I can't be bothered to do this.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Pull out, make it rigid, said that before.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah. Do you go, well, I'm a goalie, I don't need to run. Yeah. Even at park run, if 11-year-old's in front of me, I'm not, I'm just gonna take you down. Or me before me before park run. I think it it is all a test. I think everything crosses over. You've got to see how you react under pressure. How do you react when the chips are down? Because if you can't deal with that, how are you gonna deal with making a mistake? If you struggle to deal with you got to go for a run and you've got to do a 12-minute run, for example, how are you gonna deal and you struggle with that and you're like, oh, I don't want to do that? How are you gonna deal with making a mistake? How are you gonna deal with playing in front of 40,000 people? How are you gonna deal with it? I I think it makes a massive difference, and people don't see that.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

But the other thing is, just to add to that, so the most enjoyable thing for me was coming off the training pitch feeling like I had trained. I hated coming off the pitch thinking lost a day there or I've lost a session, like I could have done more there. So I would love to just I see the stitches and the cramps and like the sweating and you know, just feeling shattered. Like that was my way of saying I've enjoyed that, I've I deserve that. I you know, I've I've worked hard, now I'm gonna start reaping the rewards. If I fall short in training, I always felt as I sort of cheated myself a little bit, and that would include the running. If I go flat out and I don't win it, then I've I've done my very best.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

I'm picking up on the fact that you have an unbelievable amount of grit. So, like, grit is that hardiness, that determination, that resilience to push through pain, to push through adversity. And I think from all the goalkeepers that we've interviewed or worked with, a lot of goalkeepers have unbelievable grit because of the nature of the position. But I I also think that that comes from somewhere in your past, from your childhood, from your upbringing, from your from your YTS, your education as a goalkeeper and as a human being. So, where does your grit come from and why are you the way that you are?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah, I think I would probably be probably from my parents, I suppose. Uh I wouldn't say we were on the floor growing up, but it was like weren't easy. Uh but I just think that was something my dad had installed for me so early that it was just like my dad never let me win at nothing. Like, nothing. Game of cards, pull, darts, a run. And I'll never forget the first day I've been my dad at a run, and my dad was like, You're ready. I'm you ready. You're ready because I can see that you you've got to the point now where you know what it's all about. Uh and I'm the same with my kids, and I think that's so important. I don't believe in my daughter. Yeah, my daughter went uh golf, she's 18, so she went uh to Put Shack yesterday in London with with her work, and uh she sent me a message, she said everyone at work is like, can't believe how competitive I am. And I was like, You're playing to win, and that's just end of. So you can still be friends with people, but ultimately it's it's all about the winning, in my opinion. Uh, and that's something I've always installed to to my children. But but sometimes you have to dig deep, nothing's easy, nothing, especially winning, because there's always competition, and when you think you're there, that's when you that's when you start to decline.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I'm literally just going, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Same as my little girl, she's four years old, and uh she's fuming if I don't let her win at little games.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

I'm like, what you'll win when you deserve to win, but they'll pass that on, which is what you want. Yeah. Yeah, becoming second is like I've got a football academy, and when I first when I first started it, everyone got medals, and I was like, Well, what am I doing? Like, because it wasn't an elite academy, it was like an academy for all, so it was everyone was included. It didn't matter who you played Sunday League, whether you played in uh uh JPL, it didn't matter, it was for kids that just wanted to come and play football. And my thinking behind it was these kids have never got a medal, so I want them to feel a bit special, which was great for them kids, but it completely diluted the fact that the kids that were brilliant are now sort of dragging them down because now everyone's got a medal, so there's actually no substance of winning the medal anymore. So I took that away and it was just like the very best got medals, but everyone got a certificate of you know for attending, so there was there was a bit of balance in that, but but uh yeah, listen, it's I think that's you know, I think that's something that personally me and my family life and have my kids, I would I I would never change that.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

I I I agree because only one person can be the number one, right? You see sports days and there's no winner, everyone gets a medal, and I'm like it actually doesn't set you up for life.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Can I ask you a question then? Of course, just uh from yeah, from my point of view. So, what do you think when when we hear goalkeepers union, how do you feel about the goalkeepers union? So if you're at a football club, so we used to we used to have it a lot when I was at Arsenal, oh there's a goalie union. They used to think it was like uh a bit of a family, but but how did you feel when you're playing or you've been involved with a a a group of goalkeepers? What was it like for you? What what what was your feelings on the other goalkeepers?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Well, I wanted to win, I wanted to be number one. Obviously, you're there to support, but you're you're there for you. I think you're there for you, you're there for yourself. Obviously, I'm there to support, and my nature is to help people and and bring them up.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

So, like you said, did you ever say good luck to the goalie that was playing? Nah.

The Ruthless Mindset of Professional Goalkeepers

SPEAKER_04 27:41

I I remember doing a like I was at Wickham um and I remember competing with the other goalkeepers. We used to do this running drill where you've got to run around the pitch. And there were there was a lad who used to struggle with the running, and I thought, you know what, fuck this. I'm not gonna run next to him, I'm gonna just keep lapping him. Yeah, and I think you have to have that mindset. I know it's horrible, and people listen to this video, that's horrible, but I agree. I think when someone's down in the football world and you're competing with them, you've got to put your foot on their throat. Yeah. Because it's I know it's horrible. It's a mess weapon, isn't it? Yeah, but it's exclusive there. But I say that from a point of ruthlessness because if you become too nice or you try and support people, eventually that person will overtake you.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:23

And you're all competing for a very finite number of contracts or positions.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

I think naturally it's tough because if a goalie has a bad game, because you've got a connection, it's hard because you're going, you're coming in the game and you're going, unlucky, mate. But really, you're not thinking unlucky, you're thinking a buzzing, because I'm gonna get a chance now. Because I've when you're a goalkeeper, you have to be so selfish. And I'm not saying you've got to be horrible about it, like around a place in the change of room and and and and sort of backdoor him and say things about him when he's not around and all that. I don't believe in that. I I think that's like Schneider, I don't like that. But but certainly like when you're me and you, us three are competing to play at the weekend, it's like it's no holds barred. Like when I get on that training pitch and we're doing shooting drills or finishing drills or whatever we're doing, I'm gonna try and bury you. And when I go goal, I'm gonna try and shine. That's just that's just the way it's gotta be. But I've been involved at some clubs where it's all very, very nicey nicey, and that tells me that the one that's actually not playing is probably quite comfortable or quite happy, and I've never quite got that, which is yeah, yeah, which is something that's I just thought I'd ask you to get your opinion on that because it depends on your nature.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I'm very competitive, and I speak to players when I speak to players and they go, Oh, I lost and I'm I'm down, I'm like, good. Like I want I want to win that, I want to win, I want to be really good. I'll do the best that I can possibly do. It doesn't matter if it's a park run on a Saturday, I'll do the best that I can possibly do. If I'm playing a game, I want to win.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Yeah, head tennis, all like anything like that, it would just be like, yeah, goalie wars. Like I just think because you are because you're it's such a like a like it's just a it's a mad space to be in as a goalie. It's like so different. It's just like it, it's just you, it feels like you against the world at times, even you against your own teammates, because it's just like you. And you know, you'll get the blame for things when you when you when you make errors, you'll get the plaudits occasionally when you when you when you deserve it, but it's a really isolated position like on the pitch and in the game in general. When you train on your own, you're training at the corner of the training pitch, you know, over out of the way. Uh, and and and sometimes when you feel that isolated, sometimes you do feel like you've got a connection with a goal is because you it's almost like you're on your own, but you are together, so it's just trying to find that balance, I think.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah, it's not it's not easy. My nature is to support and I want to help people. Yeah, that's what I want to do. I'll always try and improve people, but then for me, it's like right, I want to improve you, but that's gonna improve it's a selfish thing, that's gonna improve me, that's gonna make me better. I always look at how can I improve, how can I be better, how can, but then if I help people, as I said, in my help, because they can not too much, no, no, if they improve too much and then puts you in a bad position.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

It's tough, it's it's funny it's trying to find that balance.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

It is a balance, it is a balance, but I'm always like, right, how can this help me? Yeah, in a way, but I obviously want to help others as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

So I want to help others, but if you're not gonna be able to do it, you start telling them to use the wrong technique, so he starts throwing them in and then you get in. That's not a bad way to do it.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

I I think I think it's hard. I do think it's hard to manage that union because you are maybe two or three guys in a group of people and you're isolated and your job is completely different to everyone else, but at the same time, you've got a responsibility to yourself. You you know from experience how how cutthroat football is. Yeah, the person who's playing has a future at the club. The two that aren't, their futures are on the line. And I think you think about how hard you have to work to become a pro, and then you get there, and then you've got to compete again to get the starting position. I just I just don't think you can you can help too much. I think you have to be a bit selfish.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

What about what about this? Yeah, I won't say what club, but they they they they put me with the other goalie, like when we used to go wait two away trips. So I'd room with him, and I'd be like, I don't room with him. Like I'll he's in the team, like I've got the ham. Like, and then all of a sudden you actually naturally start to like become closer, and you're almost trying to hold yourself back from not letting that happen because you just you want to have a professional relationship, but what happens is you end up becoming quite good friends. So in the end, I just said, Look, I don't want to room with him, not because I don't like him, but because I want to try and keep that that that barrier, which is people might think that's probably wrong, but I just didn't think that was beneficial for me by by becoming that close with the other goalie. So it's like, yeah, so that that never happened after, and nor did it moving forward at any other club. But I think some managers get that because some managers haven't even like questioned that. It was like, yeah, we would do that anyway. So I think there's any I know and I think the other reason I must add, yeah, by putting you both together, if I get sick overnight, and I I do get sick because we're in the same room, you've got no goalie for the next day. I never thought so. That's that that's why I never understood it anyway. Um, but but yeah, that's that that's happened strangely enough, which I felt.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Something that's popped up in my head, you know. So Scott Shearer, Jamie Young, like two of my really good friends. Yeah, I know both of them. You know both of them as Cheers and Youngie, and they was in the same room. Cheers was a nutter, yeah. You should see him now, he's completely changed. He has completely changed.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

That's what that's what the financial world does to you, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah, him and Youngie room together at Wickham. Younggy talked about this on a podcast recently, but I I'm not gonna swear too much, and I don't want to. So Shears went for a toilet, number two, yeah, and then didn't flush it, yeah, and just left it. Yeah, and then Youngie went, I can't let him get one over me. So then he did a number two, but didn't flush it. And then the whole weekend there was shit on shit on shit and shit, and then I was like, no one's gonna break. This is now who's gonna flush the toilet? Whoever flushes the toilet loses.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

They went away for a photo.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Must have been hanging around. Yeah, that is this is the bad for the cleaner that I had to clean it up. You got a question for you, Tate. Would you flush it? No.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

I'd have flushed it the first time. I'd have flushed it the first time because it's probably a bad game, it's probably not a good game to play. Especially if you're two really stubborn people, it's just not gonna end well for anyone.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Maybe we should play it the game next time we go away. Absolutely. I can think of other games to play. Sorry, we take we've gone downhill quickly. But that's the competitive nature, right? So you said the two goal kick, they're really competitive with each other and it's yeah, young kicking kids.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, good goalie youngie, super professional in everything he'd done. Just again, great to have around the place, always like always, always had a smile on his face, always love training, love goalkeeping, like fascinated with it, like brilliant. But it was uh yeah, no, it was good to work with youngie.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

On the competitive side of things, then obviously breaking into the Arsenal first team, you're around Arson Wenger, you're around some top players, the Dennis Burkamps of the world, etc. What was it like walking into that environment, having that competitive nature that you've got, but then taking that to another level to meet those demands?

Inside the Arsenal Invincibles Dressing Room

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, it was tough. And I the reason it was tough, because I was Jens, I think was I think it was German number one at the time, or got himself in front of Kahn. So I saw I was like Jens is understanding like number two. And it's like you're trying to convince convince yourself that you can you can get there and you'll get a chance. But I was never gonna get in for ability because I wasn't I wasn't as good as Jens. That's the fact. And it and he was a grafter, he was a super professional, he was militant, the way he trained, the way he ate, the way he lived, it was like perfect example on how you should be as a pro. So it sort of gets to the point where I'm like, I'm only gonna get in through injury here, or you know, or Jens being an upcase of doing something stupid, which could have happened at any moment, by the way, with him. And he ended up never ever, he he he didn't miss a minute in that Premier League season, played every single minute, so I never quite got in, but I was almost resigned to the fact, which almost contradicts myself in what I was saying, but it's like it was so difficult for me to sit there behind the end and go, I'm gonna get in here, because it's just not good enough. Uh, but I think that was that was a matter of fact, that wasn't like my opinion. I think that was that was that was the truth. So that that was tough. Uh that was tough, and then you start signing other keepers like Almunia come in, and and then you're starting to think to yourself, well, maybe it's time to maybe move on. But the expectations when you're in a changing room like that is like you can't have an off day. Like I remember doing finishing. So at the end of at the end of most training sessions, definitely on a Friday, they would basically rig the edge of the box. So it would just be like hitting dead balls. So you'd have like, and I remember going in the day before the game, I was like, that's the worst thing for like a goalie. Because it was just like, well, it was for me, because I just got buried every Friday. So you'd have like Thierry just like slinging one in the sanction, then Perez would just roll one in the bottom corner, Dennis Burkamp would like give you the eyes, I'd whip one in the other corner, and do a smash one in the top corner. You'd be like, This is like this is the last thing I want to do on a Friday, is get buried by everyone. But that was the level, like that that's that's that's why you're there, and you need to get after it, you need to start making saves because if you don't, you'll soon be caught up and be overtaken. So, yeah, the the the levels and the expectations were were very, very high. But listen, that's it's Arsenal Football Club, you can't expect nothing less.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

So you said about the change room and like the levels. So, what was it like in the change room? What was the changing room like behind the scenes?

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Do you know what? It was pretty chilled, really. Uh, I've got to say, I mean, there were some big characters in there, like Patrick, Sol, Dennis, Thierry. Uh yeah, I mean it was that was that was loads. Some different to others, there was quieter ones, Carnu was quiet, reserved, Sylvan reserved, Robert reserved. But uh Coley, Ray Parla characters, Michael Keon, Jens. It was just like, but I think because we all had the same goal, um, the mission was the same. It was to win the league, which then became not losing a game. And I think because we all bought into that and we all believed in it, which was the main thing. Like, it was actually believable. We actually look around and go, yeah, we'll do this. Yeah, no one's beating us. It was like the maddest feeling ever. Like going to games, going to Old Trafford, knowing that you are not gonna lose. Like, I'm sitting on the bus, I'm not playing, I'm thinking I'd be so scared, like, because of the record and because of going to Old Trafford. But they were like playing cards, playing, oh no, chilling, laughing, tunes on, playing one touch, in the change of them. It was like it was just so chilled, but I just think that was the belief. I think that's what worked, the dynamics of that change of them. Like they all complemented each other with so many different characters in there, but I think that's what made it work.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Did it ever get talked about not losing a game? You said about you said about you went into it about not losing a game. Did the mentality come about not losing, or was it about winning?

SPEAKER_02 39:38

I think it became, yeah, it was always winning. It was always that. But I think with with a few games to go, obviously the conversations then started getting taken seriously. Obviously, the media, people in and outside the building sort of knew that that was achievable. It was going to be tough, but it was achievable. And I think when it was good because we had something else to play for. So once we had won the title, it was like, right now we've got another, we've got another target. So it kept everyone on their toes. There was no normally, if you win a title, I've been there before, you win a league and it's just like feet up, it's the end of the season. I'll win a title, not if you just get because if you're in a playoffs or you let's say you're you're second, but you're guaranteed promotion, you still want to win the league. But there's always something, but but yeah, even just having that where we knew there was another goal and not and something that in my opinion will not be done, in my opinion, in this country in the Premier League, while I'm here. I just I I just don't see that being done. Because it's not until you look at teams like Liverpool. When I was first team coach at Watford, um, I was a goalkeeping coach when uh we played Liverpool. Liverpool hadn't lost the game. I think it must have been about 20 games in, it couldn't have been far off that. And uh we beat them 3-0 at Vic Road, and that was it, it was over. Obviously, I was buzzing, but and then after that, I think they went on to lose probably five or six games. So yeah, it just goes to show like what an achievement that was, like from the group, but how you could continue to to you know to keep that mentality because naturally you you you come off or you'll have a dip, or but you weren't allowed to earn that team, and there was no respite, there was no sort of standard dropping, it was just like it was consistent, which is obviously why they're the greatest in the Premier League.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

What a really selfish question. No, it isn't selfish because I've always fought this. So you obviously had shots against Tier Henry, and when you when he went through, you knew what he was gonna do. You knew what he was gonna do, he's gonna cut in and he's gonna bend it.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

But if you go early, you'll just it'll just reverse it.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

How how did you deal with that? Because every goalkeeper, I remember discussions going, well, you know he's gonna go. How how do you deal with that in training? Was it you just couldn't save it?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

No, I think you've just got uh in the end, you're trying everything. So, like you're trying to go early, you're trying to like drop the shoulder, you're you're trying to make him think. You're trying to stay up as long as you can, and you know, there's loads of things you're you know, you're almost playing my games of yourself where you know what you should be doing, like just stop as long as you can and wait. Maybe if he's opening his foot up, which he would normally do, you can maybe then start to lean slightly to give yourself the best opportunity to save it. But he'd play it with that much pace and that much precision, it was actually like unless you would go seconds early and then he'd just go round you or he'd just reverse it, it was like it was it was heartbreaking at times because we used to do one-on-ones, they used to do a drill from like the halfway line, so it would be she'd have X amount of seconds to go and score a goal, and like like Thierry was just like a joke. Like, there was other players in that team to be fair that were exact as capable, but but he would just go through, and if he runs down the middle of the goal, he could go either way, it's a step over shift, roll it, or he'd it'd step over, chop, sit you down, roll it, just it was like it was you didn't have a lot of chance to be fair. But I I don't think from uh from a coach's point of view we're expected to do much anyway.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

He was obviously elite, right? I know I know this is a goalkeeping podcast, but you can I think you can learn a lot from elite people, and he's I mean, I know Alan Shearer has got the the goal scoring record, but I think he's arguably not even arguably, I think he's the greatest Premier League striker of all time at this moment, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Yeah, I've always liked I think he was a bit like like the Avatar or Avatar. It was just like the way he was built, like he could run faster than everyone, he could jump higher than everyone, he could hit the ball harder than everyone. His attitude, his mindset was as good as anyone's. So he had all of the tools. Okay, at times he was a bit untidy, for example, with his link up initially, anyway, uh, and probably tactically wasn't as intelligent as, say, Dennis. But he was just like it was just it was just a maverick, it was just like he Do he could score goals from anywhere at any time within like an instant. So yeah, I mean he was just uh incredible to work with, just in in the flesh. But yeah, yeah, I mean that's the debate, isn't it? Is he is he the greatest all time? It's up for debate. He's certainly up there. Dennis Burkamp, I think Thierry Already's gone on record to say that Dennis Burkamp's you know the best he's played with, I think. Sure, he said that. And and he's played with Lionel Messi and people like that. But but I think that combination that you know them them two together, sort of Dennis dropping in and Thierry sort of flicks around the corner, one, twos. It was like no one knew what they were gonna do next.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

But what made them special? Because I think elite people are special in the way they think, in the way they see the world. What made the likes of Ray Parla, Keon, Jens, uh, Thierry, Dennis.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Yeah, I think it was just the desire to be the best, just the the mentality. I think that's what separated them. I know everyone wants to win. Like we all want to win, but do you really want to win? You know what I mean? But they it's no good being uh, you know, being the biggest sort of wanting to win in the room, but if you ain't got the ability to go with it, then you ain't you're never gonna get there. So I think it's having all the tools as a player, having that mindset, but also being surrounded by great people, great players, because without without you, you we we wouldn't have done it with there's it's almost like if you take something away, it probably wouldn't have flowed the way it did, because everyone played their own little part. You know, if you take that one part away, it probably is not gonna move as swiftly or as nicely is it as it was. So I think everyone had their role to play, but yeah, I think you're right. You know, the elite have got that that that spark, they've got that edge, and I think in that group, I think they all had that.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

So circling back to goalies then, because it's a goalie podcast, Jens again debatable, but arguably one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time, certainly achieved so much in his career. What made him special? Like, did you have any interaction with him and see anything when you were working with him that made you believe, like, okay, like he's got something that I don't have or other goalies don't have?

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SPEAKER_02 46:06

Yeah, yeah, Jens was like his attitude to training, his commitment to keeping the ball out the net was just like unreal. Like he never really, you never really see him put his feet up and go through the motions, never. And his mentality was the same. Didn't want to lose. Like in the warm-up, if we used to do like races, it just like at the last final, but in the warm up, it was just like once we were sort of ready, we would just do something on a Friday. And even that he would hate losing. Uh, and he did because he wasn't the quickest. Uh wasn't the greatest with his feet, but probably the best I've seen with taking crosses. Like his starting position was so aggressive. I'd be thinking, he's gonna get done here, he's gonna get he's gonna get like someone's gonna lob him. And people tried, but he would back himself, like he would just he was so confident or almost arrogant, really, that he like he felt as though he's not gonna get beaten from certain areas of the pitch. Uh, but again, like character, personality, persona, like presence, he had all of that in abundance, which is yeah, which is probably uh which is why he is one of the greatest in the world or was one of the greatest in the world.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

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SPEAKER_04 47:33

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SPEAKER_01 47:47

If you spend 60 pounds, you get£10 off by going to fuel.com forward slash beyond 10. That's fuel.com forward slash beyond 10. I've got a question for you. So Carriger daddy's top 10 goalkeepers, and I've got it here. Carriger daddy's top 10 goalkeepers the other day, and there's been a big debate, a mass debate.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Since when when are we going back? Are we going back my generation since I started?

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Um, yeah, that's just what I wanted to ask you. So he's put, because you've played again and David Steamon.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Shall I tell you what I put? Let's see if we've got the same.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Go on, so this isn't this is go on, who would you do? So top ten, no particular order, or this is from yeah, all time Premier League goalkeepers. I'll tell you he's got you do yours, and then I want to show you his because you obviously played with these goalkeepers.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah, so yeah, like uh sorry, Dave Steaman.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

So this would be your all-time league.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

No particular order, though, yeah? Premier League, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, you've got to do it from one to ten.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

What in order?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah. Yeah, that's more challenging. A whole podcast on this could be a good one. Peter Schmichael, yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Let's make this clear that it's a generational thing as well. The game and the profile and expectations and responsibilities of a goalkeeper have changed like tenfold. So, yes, Peter Schmichael would definitely not be the greatest in the world right about now, but uh you know, my my growing up, I would put him at one, uh I would have uh Dave Seaman at two, I'd have Vandersar at three, I'd have Edison, I'd have Alison, I'd have Donna Ruma, I'd have Martinez, how many is that?

SPEAKER_04 49:27

Seven, I think.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

I would have uh Courtois check I haven't got that. That's not in order because I've just I've forget what I am. How many is that? Courtois, check, Martinez, Mandasar, how many is that?

Facing Thierry Henry in Training

SPEAKER_01 49:46

I think that's nine. About twenty-five. So I tell you his because there's been uh obviously a big debate about it recently. So one Petacek, two, Schumacher, three, Allison, four, De Gea, five De Gea, Portois. That's one of them. Six Van de Sar, seven, Edison, eight, Neville Southall. That's his youth team bias coming up here. Yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

I love Neville Southall though. I loved him.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Yeah, nine, David Seaman, yeah, ten, Pepe Rayner.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Pepe's a good shout. I just don't think he's he's got yeah. I know Donald Runa Donald Rumba's only been in it for five minutes, but if if we're saying Premier League goal is Martinez has won the World Cup, he's he's got to be in there. Not just because of the World Cup, because he's a top-top goalie. He got I reckon he could play for anyone in the world. So yeah, I think he's got most of them right. The only ones I've you know Shay Gibbon's got to be sort of really unlucky to mess out there as well. But yeah, but listen, it's it or Pickford? So I think Pickford as well Pickford, yeah. Yeah, there's always saying no with Pickford, in there. That's just me. Like I'm just I think he's brilliant, but there's some I've got my reservations about him.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

Yeah, no yens, no yens in there.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

No, no, I don't I wouldn't have yens in that. If there was top 15 yens update in it, yeah, going on, yeah. I wouldn't yeah, I wouldn't have yens in that as much as I love him, but uh I think there's probably better goalies in that in that, but yeah, yeah, the whole Pickford thing, so I think what he's done for England is incredible. Probably been the most reliable goalkeeper for England that that I can remember, and that's you know, that's with Dave Seaman and whoever else, David James, you go back, Paul Robinson, Joe Hart, Joe Hart, yeah. I'd probably say he's probably been the most reliable. Uh and and the same for Evan. He's you know, he's never injured, he always plays. I love I I love his I love his makeup on the ball when he's got at his feet. I think he can be a bit erratic at times in the goal.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

So I I I've got a question on that then. So I've had this conversation with a few pros and we have this these conversations and debates about the personality profile of a goalkeeper, and I think there's like a bit of a yin and a yang to it. So you get those goalkeepers who are maybe a bit more involved, like uh an Aaron Ramsdale, a Jordan Pickford, a Dean Henderson, and then you get the the Van der Sars, the De Gea's, those super, super chilled out guys. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think in terms of profile makes up a top goalie? Because you, for example, when I've watched you play at Barnet, I think you've got that kind of in the middle where you can get up there and and hammer people, but you've also got that ability to stay calm as well. So where if you're coaching someone, if you're you're mentoring someone, where are you trying to put them on that spectrum?

SPEAKER_02 52:43

I look, I think everyone's personality is completely different, and I think you've got to play with your personality. So I get that Dave Seymour was the most laid-back guy in the world. You look at Courtois, you look at Czech, there's so many on the other end of the scale, but then you look at the other end. I just think the reason I don't believe you you should get too emotional or too alright, because I think it can put you off your stride, and I think that you can lose complete focus about, you know, actually get too carried away with what's going on in the game and forget about just being a goalkeeper. I've done it before, I've made a worldie save, gone out for a corner, I get too excited, I get too emotional, cross comes in, I missed a cross, balls in the back of the net because I feel like I've got too high at that moment and I should have just absorbed it, took it in, thought about it after the game and just deal with the next action rather than getting too hyped up with making a worldie because there's still loads there's still loads more football to be played. So just not yeah, just be careful you don't overdo it. But yeah, I think you should show emotion, you should show personality because that's who you are, and I think that's what's going to separate, certainly what separated me from other goalkeepers because I played with personality, but it's just finding that fine line and that balance.

SPEAKER_04 53:54

Yeah, I think I think it's a really, really hard balance to find as well because I think in goalkeeping we don't celebrate ourselves enough, but we also don't like celebrating saves.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah, I was in the middle of celebrating us the other day, I don't know if you saw it. He he made a save, celebrated, and the cross was still coming in. Literally coming out to the side, it didn't go out.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah, going on record to say I don't like that. I really don't. I don't know where that's come from. I think it's come from like when the Italians won the World Cup. I do. Remember, they were blocking things and you know they were high fiving and like fist pumping and chest pumping, and I'm like, I didn't quite get that. Obviously, you it show for me it's I think it's look at me, I've just made a weldie. Like, look at like almost of the fans, like look at that. It's almost like a big pat on the back. I don't like that. Like you're there to keep the ball out of the net. Like, I get it, if you're a centre forward and you score, you celebrate, but the game's you know, the game's dead, and I think that's completely different. People will say, well, why is that different to make it a great save? I just I just I just think it is, I don't think you should be celebrating it. That's just me personally. I don't I don't like I don't mind I don't I don't mind the high five, but when people are like fist pumping and all the rest of it and go into the crowd and all that, I just I can't buy into that. I just think it's I think it's slippery personally.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

No, I I agree with you. Like I think from an emotional control point of view, like I can remember a couple of times I've made saves, and you know those saves that you make where you have to try and hide your smile, yeah, and you're trying to stay locked in.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Yeah, you should enjoy it, and there's been moments I probably haven't enjoyed that I should have enjoyed more. But again, it's that it's that fine line, not to get too carried away. Obviously, smile, enjoy it, you know. And centre half comes over to you and goes, Right, save, son, whatever. That's nice, that'll do for me. You know, I'll get some recognition after the game. Manager, by the way, lads, we won 2-0, but what a save. That's nice. That means more to me, you know. When you hear that from players or managers, that's what that's what you want to wear.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

So I've seen Pickford, so I have this debate with my partner. I live in Liverpool now and they're all Everton through and through. And I did say, I think sometimes, oh, maybe it is for the camera. I had this debate, I was like, maybe it is for the cameras. And my partner was like, nah, nah, he's just like that all the time. So I I thought, you know, well, next game I'm gonna I'm gonna go watch, and I'm just gonna watch Pickford, and he's that animated when the balls come.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

It's constant. I've seen him, I've seen him with Wember. He's that animated all the time.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

And I was thinking if you took that, if you do take that away from him, does it take away something from his game?

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah, almost certainly. I think so. Yeah. If he says to John and Pickford you can't talk for this whole game, he'd probably have a sinker. Because I think that's what help helps him to stay, stay, stay in the game and stay focused and stay attached to everything. But yeah, that's probably what it is.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

I do love watching him.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

I mate, I I don't, I don't, I think I come from a different a different school of thought to you, in the sense that I don't mind when goalies are overly active. Like I think Aaron Ramsdale came out and said like he has to be involved in the game in order to be focused. And I feel like different goalies have different personalities, like Van der Sarr, super chilled. Aaron Ramsdale, really involved, picked everyone.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

I used to, but I used to do that by communicating and talking for the whole game. Yeah. So that would be my way of staying concentrated. Sometimes I would I would it would get to the point where I would have to stop myself because I felt like I was commentating a little bit, and that's not a good thing. But selfishly, I would be constantly giving information to to my back four or back three or whatever it might be, uh, in terms of like getting tight and no turning and stopping crosses and squeezing and just like just but that would always keep me like on the ball, and it would just help me be a bit more proactive, waiting for the next thing to happen because I would almost be ready.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

But it keeps you present, doesn't it? It's not getting inside your own head. So I talk to players about Japanese pointing and shouting. You love this one, I love this one. Yeah, so I've probably repeated myself many a times, but in Japan, what they do when the train comes, the the instructors and that they point and shout. And the whole point of that is there's less accidents. There's less accidents because they have to stay present, so they're pointing and shouting. I have to do it for me when I get changed in the gym, so I don't lose my phone. I'm like, there's a phone, there's that. Don't lose my keys. But that's exactly what you're doing. You say, Did you do it too, did you do it too much? But it helped you stay present.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Is that it helped you stay present and not get inside your own head? Yeah, one of the first times I trained with the Arsenal first team, uh, it was like Tony Adams was playing, and I think it was just like uh I think that the first team we're playing against maybe like our 18th, like the must have we just must have thrown over like an 11 just to go and play against them, and I think I don't think Tony was in the team, so there was a few of the first team lads that would like the or the leftovers on the subs that would sort of make our team up. And obviously, I want to make an impression. So I'm going like Tony, tight, tight, Tony, no turn. He told me I went, son. He went, I'm captain of this football club. He went, I know I'm doing. I was like, I tell you. I'll never forget that.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

But all right, did that stop you though? So I think it did for about five minutes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

I was going Tony, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

But what are you supposed to do? That's that's your way of keeping people.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

But I think he loved it. Yeah. So secretly, I think he loved it. I think he loved the fact that there was an 18-year-old kid that's come over to the first team and he's telling the England captain what to do and where to go. So yeah, I I well, I know he liked it because he said after, or it might whether it was that day or was the following day, he said, he said, he said, great information, he said, but maybe not as much. And I was like, okay, that's a fair point.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Did that help you? That information? Did you give less information afterwards? Like you might have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Because it was Tony Adams, but I I wouldn't have changed if I was playing on my YouTube, I'd still do the same. But that was where I got to understand. Well, when you're playing with the elite, they don't need as much information because they don't they know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah, it shows massive courage though and confidence to go in. Because most people wouldn't they go, Oh, I don't need to Tony Adams, the England captain, I don't need to tell him what to do. Yeah, I don't need to give him information, he knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

Yeah, but again, that's that selfishness selfish thing for me to make sure I was concentrated, so I would just do it for me, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah, because you see younger players, they don't they go up a level.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

I notice this and I don't talk, young players. I got I go and watch Academy football all the time. My son's at Watford. I've said to my son, I I want to hear you like loud, but I do talk, but you know, I can't hear you. Um on the sideline, I want to hear you talk. So when the ball's gone wide, I want to I want to hear the information you're giving that fullback or that winger because I think that's something that's gone out of the game completely.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

I don't know. I think that I think that would be more of a social thing, more of a cult, like more of a a now time where kids are at. They're not good communicators, or they're not as good. That's just a fact. No, they they they I don't want to get into it, but it would have a lot to do with what they're doing outside of football in terms of the vices and so on. But I think that yeah, I think the the confidence to communicate now, I think that's probably gone with some young lads. I thought I've done if they'd probably down themselves a little bit, or do they know it, do they know the information? Do they know what they're saying is right? Are they questioning it? Um, I think you've got to give kids a license to just go and say, go and express yourself, go and say what you want. If it's not right, we can talk about it after. But don't take that away from them. You know, let them let them try and be leaders.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

I I agree with that. I think the devices have got a lot to do with it in terms of like how we communicate now as like young people, but also as well, I think. Have you heard of like something called spotlight theory? So it's this idea that people don't like being in the spotlight anymore because they're worried about the fear of judgment. And you see it a lot with younger goalkeepers, they go into a first team environment or they're in a you know a youth environment, but they're so worried about the judgment of younger players around them, yeah, that they don't want to communicate because they're worried about being judged or saying the wrong things, and it's such a hard thing to coach out of them, and he's probably very lucky, your son, that he's got you because you've played, so you can give him that advice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

You're worried about being judged, but you want to get to that top level, so you have to be judged, yeah. And also playing and judgment.

Goalkeeper Personalities & Mentality Differences

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

I say don't worry about it. I say, don't worry about being judged, let people judge you. Don't worry about that, just you know, just I I know what you're doing's right, so I've got to I've got to make him believe that because I don't want to take that away from him, because I think that's a real good quality for a goalkeeper to have is being able to have the confidence to dictate to people on what you want. Because I think you do that, if you do that part of your job well, you'll have less to do. It's a fact. You get people in the right position and you urge people to stop shots and stop crosses and not get rolled, they won't get rolled because they know that you're on them. If you just let them get away with it, it's sometimes it's that it's just that reaction to people. Stop the cross, it's just like an instant uh inchal reaction from them. So yeah, I yeah, I it's it's something I look for. When I go and watch games, even if my son, for example, isn't playing, I go and watch a game. I look at the goalkeeper. When even when the ball's down the other end of the pitch, I'm sure we all do it, just to go and see his you know, his mannerisms and what he's doing when the ball's at the other end of the pitch, because I think that's really important. Just as a goalie who's proactive who's who's constantly attached to the game, attached to his back four, but moving in relation to where the ball is, maybe not giving information at that moment in time, but certainly when the ball breaks down or it gets turned over, he's he's ready to sort of organise and make sure he's in the right position to deal with anything that comes over the top or comes through.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:23

There was a uh just on that point, the communication side of it, there was a trial that they had at Barnett's that Barnett's training ground, mass trial. I think it was like 200 players, and they had them all across all the different pitches, you know, before they built all the astro turf and stuff there, and they had all the grass. And there was there must have been at least five or six games going on. And I had this goalie that was going on trial there. I said to him, What's one way that you can stand out? And he said, Oh, I'm not sure. I said, I want you to be the loudest person at that trial. So all the scouts went to go and watch this top game where you had all the Cat 1 releases and all the top players. And one of the scouts came over to watch his game because he said to him he could hear his voice from the other side of the training ground. And he ended up getting signed by a Cat 2 Academy because of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

Yeah, I could I could see that. It's a it's a it's a it's a big quality, it's a great quality, it really is for a young lad to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

So, how do we coach question? How do we coach that? Does do you need specific coaching or is it in you or not in you?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

In my opinion, it's very, very hard to make someone a leader. You lead in different ways, so you could be, you know, you could you could be professional, you could be uh you can lead off the pitch by the way you by the way you train, by the way you present, by the way you appear, by the way you talk, you could be professional. Or you could be um you you can't I can't make you go and talk. I can't make you be brave. I just can't, they're not qualities I can teach you. I think it's I think it's innate, I think it's in you. You fight some people fight it's some people will try, but it's not it's not natural, and you can see it's not natural. You know, you know, some captains you'll see, some captains now they're not talkers. Say Bruno Fernandez, maybe, maybe slightly, maybe sometimes he doesn't lead by example. You can say the same with with lads at other clubs, but the lad at Tottenham who keeps getting sent off, he's he's probably not leading the way he should be. But but my point is I think it's really it's up to the individual. It's up to the individual whether or not they feel comfortable doing that. I think you touched on it earlier. I think it's that fear of people questioning what you're saying. But yeah, I I I think bravery and uh being vocal, being yeah, being being a leader vocally on a pitch, I don't I I really don't think that's something that you can uh that you can make someone do.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Do you think you can coach it? Because for me, I don't think you can coach the personality part. I think you can show someone examples of what great communication looks like.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

But do you want to make someone uncomfortable? So if he's not comfortable, Doing it. Even though it's the right thing to do, you know, it it it that could that could have an adverse effect by by making him do something he's not comfortable doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:11

I feel like you have to do things that are uncomfortable in order to go though.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Well, yeah, the courage to step out of the comfort zone. I've got I was gonna have a really deep thought in that because I've seen play that. I was like, oh my god, I'm I and I was as I was going there, I'm thinking of the players I've worked with, and the players that I've worked with who weren't leaders and now lead or club captains and captains, but I think it comes from self-leadership first, so they led themselves, they become more self-aware, more experienced, more experienced, yeah. As you get older, more qualified intelligent. Yeah, I've seen some players as well who who are leaders when they're young. There's they're outliers, right? But I've seen people go through their journeys. Can you can you make them leaders? I think they've got it in them already. So is that but born or made?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

There'll be managers now though that you'll look at that, you know. I don't know him personally, but like, for example, Kieran McKenna at Ipswich, like I probably I would I don't know if he was a you look at him as a as a as a person as I said, I don't know. Thomas Frank, for example, you know, there'll be other managers out there that you you go, well, what was it? Was he a vocal was he vocal? Was he a leader on the pitch? Was he was he like that? You know, Carrick was was quite a quiet character, like on the pitch. So it's not necessarily to say that if if you're not vocal and you don't lead with your words on a pitch, you can often leave your action. It doesn't mean you're not going to become a leader later on, which they clearly are because they're top, top managers. So there's yeah, I think there's different elements to it, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Yeah, there's loads of different elements to leadership, like so many. One of them is like you say, communication, how you hold yourself, resilience, resourcefulness, being honest. I think there's so many things that go into leadership that can be talking about framework.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

I think appearance is big. I I'm on it all the time with, yeah, as I say, I keep reverting back to my son because it's because he's current, but yeah, the whole cut socks thing, the holes in the back of the socks, the boots undone, like playing with your laces undone, because they're obviously sock boots. Like the socks down here now, it's like the shorts down there. Damn, what does he look like? Who's managing that kid? Like who's coaching him? Who's letting him walk on a football pitch looking like that? He's 13 and he looks like he's played in two World Cups and won three Premier League titles, and he's on 100 grand a week because he should not be that's not the way that that they should be looking at that age. That's not the way they should be appearing. I think you have to appear and look the part. Yeah, you can have your coloured boots, that's fine. Make sure they're done up. Oh, you got your socks on, pull your socks up. It's like just I think, yeah, I think to all captains for me should look the part. Should look the part.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

Do you think that comes from seeing people in on TV and getting influenced in some TV? So, for example, I go and watch my nephew play and they're tied on their knees and going.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

Yeah, but is that that's not academy level? Is that grassroots?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

Academy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

Oh, it's academy level. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but well that's what they do, it's not fever as well, isn't it? It's the fever, different celebrations. I I I do get it, I do get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

Yeah, it's it is a mad one. But is that come does that come from being a like going through the experiences you've been through? So from obviously cleaning boots, you had to wear did you have to wear black boots? Black boots only black boots. Only black boots, yeah, yeah. It was only black boots. It was Cope, didn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

Yeah, and I think you had the specialis, didn't you? Yeah, the outro specialis as well. Uh but yeah, that's what it was. But listen, I uh you can't wear what you feel comfortable in, but look the part.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:00

I think I think it comes down to and we're gonna talk about managers in a second, but like I think it comes down to your manager. Like, uh my YTS was with quite a strict manager, so black boots only, even if you had like any colour of them, you had to black them out, right? Okay, cleaning the snow off the pitches when it snowed, yeah making sure the kit like we used to do our own kit, we didn't have kit men. We used to wash our own kit in the training rounds. Yeah, I think things like that then shape the the player that you become on the pitch and the way that you carry yourself and the respect that you have for the game and for the environment. But I think obviously with FIFA, with social media, with the way that Premier League players maybe present themselves now and with social media, I think maybe kids' perceptions of what footballers are like has changed.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Yeah, that that they are everything is so instant, everything is so accessible. They could just you know, the YouTube, they'll pick up on stuff and naturally they because they look up to these players, they're like they're role models, they're their idols, they're they're like heroes, that's who they want to be. So you try and emulate them, don't you? So, yeah. I mean, look, it's not to say the first team players shouldn't be doing it, they can do what they like. They're top athletes, but I think it's down to the coaches to say, listen, you're not there yet, son. When you get in the first team, you can pull your socks down, you can cut holes in the back of them, but until you get to the first team, you'll look like everyone else, and that's looking like a fuck looking like a proper football team.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:23

We can't move on until we speak about arguably one of the most innovative managers in Premier League, if not world football, in Arson Wenger. Wenger, Wenger.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:34

I just had never heard him.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:37

In Arson Wenger. Um stepping into that first team and working under him, what were your early experiences like stepping into that dressing room, stepping into that environment under his leadership? What was that like?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

Yeah, I think it was it was made pretty, it was made easier because Arson Wenger used to at the old London Coney where Watford are now, the first team pitch used to back on to where the 18s used to play. So so after training, Arsenal would sometimes play on a Sunday. Nine times out of ten because they play Champions League games. So after they're training on a Sunday, uh so after they're training on Saturday, he would walk over to watch our games in the 18s, and he would stand behind the goal. Imagine that with Pat Rice. I'd be like, oh my god, gaffer's watching. So he would do that, for he would do that like every time we were there, he would always show a keen interest and he would always know your name. And they were all so well played, well done. So it wasn't like I wasn't like a rabbit in the head, like some just going, oh my god, that's Arsenal Linger. Never spoke to him, you know, he don't even know who I am. Like it was a little bit easier because I felt comfortable, but then obviously, when you're given that opportunity and you know what the expectations look like, and you know who he's worked with, and you know what he's all about, it's like the standards are high. But he was also very realistic as well, like he wouldn't he would understand that you're a young kid coming into the first team, you've got to find your feet, uh, and you're gonna make mistakes, but he would uh but he would but he would expect you to overcome that and just you know and almost just mould yourself into the group because that's why you're there. He would almost say, look, you're here because you're good enough. Over to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:24

Do you have any memories of like interactions with him or like memorable moments with him that sit in the memory?

Leaving Arsenal and Building a Career

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Um, yeah, look, we had conversations uh during my time at Arsenal where I was probably getting a bit frustrated. I was a player, they'd pull me and say, Look, you're doing great. You know, we'll see you've got a bright future at the club, just keep working hard, so on and so on, and it'd be another conversation to say, Look, we've had interest from somebody else. I think it's a great opportunity for you to go alone, get some games. So there'd be all that sort of stuff. But but he would keep himself to himself. But I think that was a good thing because when he spoke to you, you knew it was important, so it didn't get diluted over a period of time where there was constant conversations, which I think some managers do, and it ends up not really resonating as much as it probably should have. So um, yeah, we had our chats. It was it was a big help to me to Gaffer.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:13

And obviously, your your time at Arsenal came came to an end. What was that like for you having your education pretty much a whole football life at that football club? What was the transition like away from the club?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

Yeah, it was difficult at first uh because it's all I ever knew. I was at the club for 15 years, so it was like I was excited because it was a fresh challenge, but it's not until that's gone you're going, oh, like that will probably never come back now, that Arsenal won. So now it's got like I've got to deal with that, I've got to get out, I've got to get over that. Like now I've really got to go and sort of forage my own career. But that was me being sort of selfish, really, because I didn't want to be mad. Like I was number two at Arsenal and I weren't happy in the Premier League. I want to go play. I look now and I'm going, are these goalie's actually want to go play? Like they're like number three and number four, they're not playing games, but they're on a fortune, and maybe that's maybe that's what they want to do. I don't know, but but I was so driven to go and forge a career and experience winning, like playing and being a first-team goalkeeper, not part of a first team squad, but actually being number one, and I think that you know you've only got to look at my career to see that I've had probably six, six, seven loan moves. I think I've played for like seven championship clubs or eight championship clubs, because I've wanted to go and progress and play. But again, that's that's the the character side of it, yeah. So so so when you leave Arsenal, it's it's a tough one, it's a tough one to take because you yeah, you know sort of that opportunity's probably gone that uh and that and that boat sailed. Uh but but you but you you deal with it, you get over it, it takes a bit of time, but uh, but yeah, not easy. Great, one of the greatest clubs in the world. So when you when you know that opportunity is gone, it's it's uh yeah, it's a it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:08

But you'll always be able to say that you play for Arsenal at Highbury. I certainly will, and scored a penalty and saved a penalty. I left that part out.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

So, how did you find the transition from Arsenal then to becoming a number one?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:22

Loved it. Yeah, I really enjoyed being yeah, walking out, doing a warm-up, preparation for the week, the adulation and the euphoria after winning a game. Going out, even going out with a team after after a win, knowing that you've played your part in that. I felt like fulfilled. I I didn't feel uh when I've been at clubs and I've been a number two, I never actually quite felt I was involved as much as I would have liked to be. And that that's obviously frustrating, but you don't obviously you don't let it affect you, you've just got to consistently trying to find ways of how I can get in the team. Or if you get to a stage where you're not getting in the team, it's like right, okay, maybe I've got to try and find somewhere else to go and play. Which at times I was un I say I was unlucky. I was I went to Wolves on loan and Wayne Hennessey was there, like what a goalie. But I think he was like 17. I know he just broke the record for clean sheets in the in the football league. I think get nine in a row at Stockport, it was like outrageous. And uh Mick McCarthy broke me to Wolves and said, Look, Stacky, he said, we've got this young kid here. He said, I'm not too sure if he's ready to play in the championship because Matt Murray and Carla Kimmy are both injured, both top lads, both brilliant goalies. And uh I said, okay, I thought I'd I'd I'll take my chances, I'll go to Wolves, and then within like an hour of working with uh Wayner, I was like, Wow, this kid's good, he's gonna go to the top, and uh I never put up again. I played in the cup games. I think I probably played a couple of league games that year against Carvan Palace, I think. Uh, but yeah, you can get unlucky sometimes as a goalie. Um Redin, for example, lost two lost two league games the whole season when Marcus Hanneman was there. Uh it's just like you're waiting for an opportunity. But if you're not losing games of football, it's very hard to get in or he's not getting injured. So yeah, it you go for the right reasons because you want to play, because you want that feeling back, but then sometimes you can yeah, it you can be unfortunate if you're behind a very good number one.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:24

Yeah, Wayne, Wayne's probably what the one that really kicked on, right? When he was at Wolf.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

So I remember I can't believe Arsenal did take him, somewhere like that. Yeah. I thought he would go, I thought we'd go big Wayne. I thought we'd go to United, somewhere like that, because he he was that good. I've never seen someone strike a ball as cleanly as him. Like he couldn't well with his left foot, like like Edison and his right foot. That's how I would compare his ball striker was like Edison, like now, like crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:50

Yeah, my dad's a massive Wolves fan. I remember the time when there was the transition period between Kyle Aikimi and uh Matt Murray, and obviously Wayne was kind of coming through, and my dad's no 17-year-old, like young goalie. I think he just had his first season in the Prem. I'm not sure if he's gonna be ready. And then he came out and he just looked the part like he used to have the shirt tucked in, yeah, green wolves kit, he looked like a proper goalie.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:13

Yeah, yeah. He used to have small feet as well, Wayne. I remember his feet looked tiny because he was so big. But uh, but yeah, good lad. Yeah, he was young. I tried to yeah, say mentor him. I think Mick covered me. I was very different to Wayne, but I think, yeah, Mick brand me into well people, to be fair. You know, probably give him a kick up the ass if he was sort of getting sloppy or putting an arm around him if he was probably struggling a little bit. Um, I don't think Mick would have been too keen on me taking him out, intervaling him after a game, put it that way.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:48

What was what was Mick like as a manager? Because he's obviously another massive character that you've got to work with in in Premier League football. What was he like?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:54

Yeah, I've played yeah, that's a mick, yeah. Mick's black and white, Mick's who he is. Like I love that about Mick. So I've yeah, Mick signed me twice actually for Wolves, uh, two low moves. I've played twice for Martin Allen, mad dog, he's a big character. Mick McCarthy signed me twice, Dennis Wise signed me twice, and Steve Coppel took me twice. And I would say they're all certainly the first three, uh Dennis Wise, strong character, Martin Allen, strong character, Mick's the same. But Mick's no thrills, Mick tells you straight. And when Mick tells you something, you you listen to it. Because if you don't, you ain't gonna play, or it'll get someone else in. And I do like that about Mick. And that's one thing I've throughout my career, I've always tried to take different uh different traits from different managers. For example, I like the way he does it. I would do that if I was a gaffer. So you try and pick little bits out of it. So Mick was someone that I always thought he stays true to himself. Sometimes he'll probably say things, it'll probably look back on and go, maybe a bit too strong, but yeah, but he'll he'll but he'll live with it and he'll sleep at night. So uh yeah, no, I I I love working with Mick.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:02

So like they're like TC was there, was TC.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

TC was there, yeah. They're like a dynamic Jew, aren't they? Yeah, they are like completely different, completely different, but it worked. It did work, it did work. Two very different characters. TC was led as well. Yeah, Terry Connor.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:19

Yeah, the only reason I know all of this because my dad, he's a massive Wolves fan. So he he we used to watch the TV together when I was younger, and you'd see them on the TV, goes, Oh, that's TC and that's Mick. Yeah, yeah, good Super Bowl, actually, yeah, they were. Oh man, and then you obviously left Arsenal to go and pursue first team football and to play. And I think the first time in your career after that where you really established yourself was was at Barnett, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:43

How before that, before that, I would say the first, yeah, my first real sort of at Hibs in Scotland. Sorry, yeah. Yeah, I would say that's probably where I really set my stall out. Uh I became a number one for a number of years. Uh, yeah, playing, yeah, playing for Hibbs, played in Europe for Hibs, which was which was special, played, played at Hampton for Hibbs, got to a Scottish Cup final. But yeah, Hibbs is probably where I really found my feet a little bit after flirting with a number of clubs and not quite yeah, getting settled. Um, but then yes, I went to Barnet, which was yeah, loved it, absolutely loved Barnet. Yeah, bit of history really, because I sort of grew up, I grew up in uh Hedden. So that's like what well, Collingdale. So yeah, I grew up around there and obviously the hive and obviously the story of Underhill played there with Arsenal Reserves. We used to play there, so there was a a bit of history with that. Uh and yeah, what yeah, an emotional couple of seasons, you know, heartbreak and joy getting relegated last day of the season, went at Northampton, saving the last ever penalty at Underhill in the last minute against Wickham, which obviously got down in history because it's not there anymore. Uh and then well, yeah, winning the uh National League, which was like actually one of my greatest ever seasons. I loved it. Gates had away, Halifax away, yeah, the journeys, like the just the camaraderie and the spirit we had in that team was just I was unreal. Loved it, despite despite the level, it didn't bother me. I was playing week in, week out with a brilliant group of lads for a club I liked, for a manager that I liked. It was yeah, it was a it was a good way to sort of go out of league football, really. Yeah, I I loved my time there.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:28

How did you like throughout your career? I'm gonna come on to Barnett in a second in more detail because there's there's some stories there that I wanted to tap into. But how did you deal with the constant change in your career? Because you move you you play for a lot of clubs, either on loan or permanent. How did you deal with the constant change? Because a lot of young players struggle with dealing with the uncertainty of football and the change that comes from from a career in goalkeeping and football.

Edgar Davids at Barnet & Dressing Room Stories

SPEAKER_02 1:23:49

Yeah, it's uh I think you get used to it a lot of the time as well. It's like it's so unit's so unsettling because you're going for a three-month loan now, or you're you're yeah, I think I went for three months. I never went for a month anywhere. Uh, but it's hotels, it's like you're not with your family, you're not with your kids, you're not with your missus, you're up there on your own, you're left to your own devices, you know, you you've got no support really. It's just you know, you're constantly travelling. So I yeah, Plymouth, it's the other side of the country, not down the bottom. But I went I I went assigned uh on a two-year deal down there plus an option, then I went to Blackpool on loan, and then I've you know, I went to Leeds, I was at Leeds on loan, and I was at you know, Wolves on loan. Where else did I go? Lime, I forget the clubs. I I think I went uh where else did I go on loan? I forget, there's been quite a few actually, but then obviously just going to Belgium, going to India. Like you constantly like I was I was open to the fact of of moving because I wanted to play. So there was the the desire of playing football outweighed the stresses and the um sort of like difficulties in in going alone and moving all round the place, staying in hotels. It's not easy though, it's not easy. It's nice to have a base and be settled and and you know have an apartment and know that you're gonna be there for a season rather than going, I've only got three months here, I need to do well or I'll be back out the door.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:13

People don't see that side of football, do they? Because everyone says to me, Why do you help pro footballers? They've got it easy, and I'm like, Whoa! Like you couldn't, isn't it? If I put you in their shoes, you'd you'd fall apart. It's the judgment, the criticism. Yeah, people don't see the moving. Like, for example, I had a meltdown just moving to Liverpool, yeah, and I was staying there. It wasn't like three months and then back. It's constant travelling, going to a new place, meeting new people, new environments, and then before you know it, someone else.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:41

I've tried doing that with kids. I'd like I've got four kids. I left my kids' building, went to Israel, went to India.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:47

How did you find that mentally?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:49

Tough, yeah, tough because you're you're not, you know, you're on uh FaceTime and you know the first day at school or save the penalty at the weekend, you're not there to watch it. All them little sort of memories that you should have been there to witness and you're not there, that's tough. But you're staying in a you know, staying in a hotel, you're in a room, you're on your own. It's like that's that's no way really. It's not what it's not how you want to be living, it's just a fact. You want to be surrounded by your friends and family. But but then the sacrifices you have to make. And you know, people it's easy for people to say that, but I'd like to see people maybe take on some of the challenges that I've took on throughout my career and see how they got on. That's not always easy.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:31

Do you think people ever truly get to know the person behind the gloves?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:39

I think I think loads of people know who I am because I'm pretty open and honest. Don't really dress anything, don't I have nothing, nothing to add. But I think that's just uh yeah, I I I see no reason why they can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:52

Who are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:54

What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:58

We always talk about this and like who who we are, who are we? I think it's our values and what we stand for.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:03

Yeah, I think listen, I think I'm a I think I'm a great teammate, I think I'm honest, I think I'm very helpful, respectful, I think I'm loyal, um driven, hardworking. Can sometimes be a little bit too much, maybe at times, whether that's whether that would have been on the pitch or off the pitch. I get that. But uh, but I think yeah, I I think that's probably all right. I'm just an honest, I think I'm one of the good guys, put it that way. Yeah, I've always tried to help younger players. If you speak to any young goalies or any young players at any club I've been at, I would always try and help them out. Or try and do the right thing and spend some time with them or give them advice or whatever that might be. I've never got too too high, I don't think, as a as as a as a goalie. I've always been very mindful that it could could come crashing down at any minute. Uh, but I've always spoken my mind. I've always spoken my mind with managers, with coaches. I've fallen out of a few because I won't I've got principles and I won't there's some non-negotiables that I just won't I I won't I won't accept whether that's with teammates or whether that's with managers the way you speak to people. I'm a big believer in the way you deal with people and we speak to them, the way you behave in front of people. I'm quite set in stone with that because that's a whole respect thing. Uh and that's why I've fallen out of people in the past because I think they've sort of probably gone over the line at times. But uh yeah, I'd like to say from my time in football, I'd like to think in every change when I've been in, I can honestly not say that I've I've come out and hated any of them, which is like quite rare, because I know a lot of lads do fall out. But I've I've kept uh my relationships pretty sweet over the years, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:59

I I think the word they're looking for, we talked about it, we're gonna do a we were gonna do a session like it the other day, uh authenticity. Yeah. That's the thing, it's like I know what my values are, I know what I stand for. If you like me, you like me, and if you don't, you don't. That's for me is authenticity. We said it the other day, one of my coaches says a lot of people say that though.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:18

A lot of people say they're like that, but they're not. No, they're not, they're not. A lot of people like a lot of people like to think they are, and they say, Yeah, well, I'll say what I how I feel and what I think, but I know that's not the case because I've seen people hammer managers after the game or hammer players after the game. And I'm like, go and tell him. Man, that you're like you're you're a liar then. It's as simple as that. It's not always easy to say it, but there's a way of saying it. Just you know, if someone's had a bad game, don't have to dig him out in front of everyone, but don't say it behind his back, just go and pull him up, just say, listen, what was up with you today? Or it might be a reason why he's played badly, you don't know. So don't isolate him and put him in a position where it's uncomfortable. But yeah, I've played with a lot of them as well. Frauds that actually think they're someone that they're not.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

Yeah, so when you say in football, the the mask, yeah, it's like putting the mask on, and you notice that with a lot of people, like especially from behind the scenes, and you'll see a player, and then you'll see what they're like, and it's not them, you know. Hold on a minute, that's there's something there's a bit of inauthenticity. So my coach, I said it the other day, he says authenticity is just a lack of inauthenticity. I think that's really cool. And it's like there's a difference between being another thing that popped up being nice and being kind. Kind is you actually there's a way to say it, you're saying it in a in a certain way. Nice is you're not you're not saying you're not being authentic in what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:53

Yeah, I think obviously you need to have a nasty side as well. I know I've said that before, but in this world and in this game, if you haven't got that side to you, you will get walked all over and people will take liberties. That's just whether that's with coaches. If coaches think you're easy to drop or easy to leave out, they'll leave you out. If they think that you've gonna start charging down that tunnel or down that you know into their into their office and bang on the door, I do think they'd have question marks over doing it. I genuinely believe that. I was gonna say, do you think do you think that? Because I get bullies time on my turn. That's one thing I don't like. I don't like bullies in the change room, I don't like bullies in general, but you've got to back yourself and you've got to almost put the pressure on the gaffer to say, listen, if you leave me out, we're gonna need to talk about this. Or you don't play me after he's thrown three in. We need to have a conversation. So I think you've definitely got to have that belief as well that you can. And if someone questions you and say, You I think you've got to be, you've got to be your own man, you've got to be able to deal with it. And if you if he's right, you've got to be able to hold your hands up. So yeah, you're just you know, you're bang on. But you've definitely gotta, you've definitely got to be able to sort of yeah, be true to yourself. Because if you if you're not, you can't. Oh well, I can't stick the head on a pillow at night if I'm if if I'm not.

One Glove Ad

SPEAKER_01 1:32:13

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SPEAKER_04 1:32:34

But listen, if you're a goalkeeper and you've ever felt nervous going into a game, maybe you feel that you've lacked that confidence or that courage. This course is for you. More confidence, less fear, more consistency, and learn how to have your best season yet. And Rob, I've always said if you're gonna have world-class gloves, you've got to have a world-class mindset to go with it. Back to the show. I remember you probably won't remember this, but I went in on the trial at Barnett when I was like 15, 16 years old. And I walked into the gym upstairs at the hive, and you were in the gym, and I couldn't get in because you used to need the key cards to get in. So you let me in the gym, you're like, Oh hi, come over, like, come and use the gym. This is where all the stuff is. I thought, oh, Stacky's a great guy, like he's super chilled. So I came out, went training with the with the 18s and the 16s, and you were training behind the uh the building behind the ground on the bottom pitch. Came over and watched. I just remember thinking, oh yeah, Stacky's a really nice guy. I think it's Jamal low in that team when he was younger. Yeah, you've pinged the ball up to him, he's not held it up, and you've just absolutely fucking hammered him. I went, Oh, Stacky weren't like that with me earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:39

And what's Jamal gone on to do? Yeah. He's had what a career he's had. Because that's because you're setting standards, the expectations are higher. Jamal, you're playing centre forward, you've got to get hold of the ball. What we're gonna do, not tell him. I've got to tell him. It's gonna make him a better player. And I absolutely love Jamal. And I'm buzzing he's gone on to have the career he's had, and what a lovely kid as well. I absolutely love him. But but there's nothing wrong with that. Okay, it's the way you deal with it, but when you're on a football pitch, it's not uh, excuse me, please, uh, yeah, thank you, nice one. It's wait, do it like this. And if I ain't come for a cross, I expect someone to pull me and say, wait, come and take that cross, get off your line, because that's that's the environment we're in, or it used to be anyway, which is accountability, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah. But sometimes people don't like doing that because they it's just again, it might not be a just manifest out. Don't worry about it. Kick another one up there, made another one.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:35

Do you think times have changed in football? So we talk about the dressing room now, it is a lot, it's a lot different, but uh couldn't be further away from where it used to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

That's why I stopped to enjoy it, I'll be honest with you. It weren't the so it wasn't always a social side to it, but it was yeah, I just think that obviously I sound like an old man, but like the phones, when the phone started coming into it, and yeah, it would just it just lost its touch, really. Yeah, it lost its touch. I think the personality is the you know the the crazy sort of side to it, which is what I loved. Uh it just yeah, it started to fizzle out for me. Uh, you know, Christmas dudes, 25 man squad, there's like ten of you, no good. Away trip for six hours, no card school, that's no good. Win a game away from home, want to get back, go out for a beer, no takers, that's no good. So there was like parts of that that I struggled with. I didn't understand, you know. You you you've just signed, you've got to stand on a chair and sing a song. You get people refusing to do it. What is going on? This is like no, just what you do, get on a chair, you've got to sing a song. But then again, you go, you don't want to sing a song, you can't make him. But that was kind of where the game was going. It was just like, yeah, it almost like the game started losing. Or the changing room started to lose a bit of power, I think. Um, and I think that was due to sort of characters really just being faded out. Because not a lot of managers want too many characters, which I think's mad. Because if I was a manager, I'd get loads of characters because they'd run the changing room for me. Make my job easier. As long as they've done what I asked them to do and delivered the same messages that I wanted them to deliver, that's fine. But because characters have an opinion, a lot of managers don't like dealing with too many of them. Questionable. With Frank going into Tottenham, there are too many characters in there for him. There's too many egos. When he was at Brentford, it might be nice and nice and easy because of who they're recruit who who they'd recruited. But yeah, some managers don't like having too many of them in the squad, which I think is like crazy. As long as they're doing the right thing, then you've got to keep them on side as well. Otherwise, it could have badly because that's power in numbers.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:54

Edgar Davids. Tell tell us about your time at Barnett with Edgar Davids, because I remember my experience there of just observing from the outside. What was your inner workings like with him?

Playing Abroad and Football Life Realities

SPEAKER_02 1:37:06

Do you know what? I really liked Edgar. I really, really liked him. Uh obviously, the the obviously the famous thing is obviously with him wearing number one. Um, but he came and pulled me in a in a canteen on the yeah, the day before our team photo, I think it was, or leading up to our first game of the season, and he just said uh he said uh stack. He's called me stack at the moment. But you we used to have to call him Mr. How mad's that? Mr. Mister, yeah. So Edgar Davids, we had to call him Mr. But it's like gaffer, it's just Mr. from where we're from, is like what it's normally gaffer or boss, but it was I think it's like the same thing basically in Holland. So that was a bit of a shock, but that's the first thing that blew my mind calling this geezer Mr. It's like mad. Uh, but yeah, he asked her wear number one, and uh I was like, yeah, cool, because I got played a year the season before that, and I thought I wore 26, 26 or something like that. Yeah, 26 or 25. Uh, so I was I was absolutely fine with it. It was just the squad number. And I actually asked Mick McCarthy because we played it for each other pre-season friendly, and Mick, uh, I said to Mick, what about? He said, Well, I said, I said to Mick, what about uh the gaffer wearing like number one? And he went, Stacky, he went, son. He said, I've had plenty of number ones sit behind me on the bench. In other words, it don't matter what number you got on the back, it matters whether or not you're on a pitch or not. So I was like, Do you know what, Mick? I said, just put on. So uh yeah, that was his thing. But uh, but I listen, I was excited. I see his Bentley Continental come down the drive at Barnett, I was like, Who's this? And then I see the dreadlocks and the glasses come out, and I was like, that is actually Edgar David's. Uh but I was buzzing, I was excited. Yeah, I used to uh yeah, I used to watch him when he was at Juve and Barcel and stuff like that. It was like it's a legend. So uh yeah, playing under him was brilliant, playing with him was brilliant. Um I don't think he would probably part of it was a little bit disappointed because I expected him to run the games from start to finish, like because of who he was. But I just think he probably struggled with a level as well, to be fair. Uh, no disrespect to the level or the players that we were playing with or against, but he weren't at the level he was used to. But uh, but sometimes he'd be poor, he'd let himself down, he wouldn't play well, get sent off.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:24

That's just got sent off in his first game, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:26

Sent off three times in one season, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:28

Yeah, he had a temper. I heard this story, I don't know if it's true. I wanted to ask if you could confirm it or not. But is it true that he once parked his Bentley behind the goal to watch training?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:38

Yeah, because it was Chuck and Nelvin Ray, and a cappuccino and a cross on, and he just watched training like that for his Bentley with a wiper's going. That's a true story. True story.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:50

Well, so the goal, so the the car was parked behind the goal. Were you in the goal in front of the Bentley?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:55

No, I think I was at the other end and watched it like I could I could see the car. I was at the other end of the pitch while he was watching it. But he was a player, by the way. So he was a player. He just decided that he didn't want to train for that on that day. Yeah, he was such so he was so chilled out. He went from one extreme to the other. Like he'd be like in your face and wanted to like have a punch up, or he'd be like, nicest geezer in the world, talk about his type and have a Holland World Cups. Like it was like quite intriguing, really. You'd want to get to know you'd it was like you'd want to get to know him because he he's got probably so much to talk about and so much experience that you'd want to try and get out of him. But he was just a bit guarded like that. But I liked him. I liked him. Not everyone liked him, he wasn't the most popular amongst our group because of the way he spoke to people, which I didn't like, but he had he had standards and he had expectations, and if he can't live up to them, then that's just you know, it's he he he he can't accept that. But he's got to understand that that's that's the level we were at.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:55

I gotta ask you about obviously I'm Indian heritage, right, from India. I gotta ask you about your time at Kerala playing in the uh Indian Premier League over there. What was that what was that like as an experience going all the way over there to play?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:09

Oh, listen, I loved it. Probably one of the best things I've done in my life to go to India. Uh played for Kerala Blasters in the Indian Super League. Um went with Michael Chopra and Aaron Hughes. There was a couple of sort of British lads there. Uh Steve Copper was a manager, Wally Downs was the assistant. So again, that helped. Uh, but yeah, what an experience. And I think we touched on it before we started this. That got to an Indian Super League final in front of 80,000 people. I thought my career was sort of finished. So that would come out of nowhere, really. But yeah, just travelling around India, playing a good Mumbai, Calcutta, Delhi, North East. It was like, yeah, it was an incredible journey. I loved it. Yeah, just seeing parts of India, the expense of the culture, the people were incredible. I couldn't know enough yeah. It was uh, yeah, it was one I looked back with with uh with full memories. Gutted that we didn't win the final. I saved the near Hume penalty. I don't know if you remember him. You look a bit like Hume, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:11

Is he a good-looking ball geezer? Yes, with a lot about him.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:15

So you got a Google in Hume, and I wanted to put your face and his face next to each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:21

I love that. So talk about the end. We talked about Barnett. How did you find the end of your career? And was coaching your natural progression to go to, or is it like I don't know anything else about football? This is what I need to get into.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:32

Yeah, well, I yeah, it was. I I went back, well, I went to university to do uh a degree in uh professional sports running and broadcasting, but I always felt as though coaching was what I wanted to do. I felt that's I I thought I'd be I thought I'd be brilliant at it, you know, whether or not I turned out to be brilliant, we don't know, but but yeah, I I loved the idea of being a goalkeeping coach or being a football coach. I mean I had my outfield A licence when I was 20 27, maybe 28, and then I had my goalkeeping like uh A licence by the time I was probably I don't know, 30 something, quite early, yeah. Maybe not as early as that for my outfield actually, but yeah, but I basically got both my A licences, obviously my outfield uh B, my goalkeeping B youth mods. I'd done all of them by the time I was probably like 32, 33. I was like qualified. So I always knew naturally I would sort of probably go in that direction, yeah. But yeah, no, I I I loved the coaching side of it, I really did. I love developing young goalies, I've got a massive buzz out of going and watching play Kings Langley on loan or Willstone on loan or Oxford City on loan, it didn't matter. Like I loved actually going and watch these young boys go and play and play their train and see how they react to certain scenarios on it on a match day when they're fully grown blokes are playing for a hundred pound win bonus and they're like getting the um if you can't kick it to the winger or you're kicking off the pitch or you're not covered for crosses, like seeing how they reacted to that was something I really enjoyed. Uh I do miss it. I miss it a little bit. I miss I miss being around people more than anything. Uh and talking football, but but even that, I mean yeah, this is another podcast, but yeah, even some of the coaches now, like they drive me mad a little bit. Yeah, it's all a bit prescribed for me, it's all a bit like YouTube, sort of like I've seen this and I heard that, and have you seen what they're doing on here? And I've it's just like, yeah, it does frustrate me, some of these coaches, I've got to say. Not trying to reinvent the world, but uh yeah, you can see now the game's just going back to the way it was a little bit, bit of a throwback at the moment, isn't it? With long phones and all the rest of it. We could talk about restarts, uh blue in the face and how different to do it against different presses and different builds and all that. It's just yeah, it's just I think it's become a little bit overcoached now. Um it's taken the uh yeah, I'd like to see the shackles be taken off some kids just to let them go and do their own thing and just play what they see and play what they feel, not necessarily having it so set up and like rigid, which I think it is at times. But but yeah, as I say, that's that's like another conversation with coaches and stuff. Some are some are unreal. I mean, Alfie works with a goalkeeping coach at at Watford at the minute, Arthur Janetta, and he's like he's top, top, top.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:29

Played against him at Orient.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:30

Yeah, but he's got some really good ideas, but he doesn't have a coach, it doesn't, he understands what what the what you need to look like. Where's the end game? It doesn't have to be all thrills and just be good at this, be good at this, be good at this, be great at that. Can you be great at that? And then you'll you'll get there eventually. Do you know what I mean? But uh yeah, I I must say I I I don't I don't watch stuff online, but I get sent stuff, like other goalkeeping coaches would send me stuff, but other goalies would send me stuff on WhatsApp and go, Have you seen this? And I'd watch it and I go, like, what am I watching? Like, how is that improving a goalie? At what point is that are you thinking that is relevant to the game? Uh and I will have a little nibble as well now because the other thing that drives me mad is when goalkeepers put their sessions on when LinkedIn, like that just does my head in. Because that's like, look at me, and I don't know if you do that, I don't care, but I don't want a goalie coach, but it's just like the whole I don't know, it's just become like a bit of a PR stunt, and it's just like free advertising, yeah. And I know goalies do it, and I know you've had uh you've had some of them on here, and I love you all to pieces, by the way. It's not personal, but um yeah, I just don't I've I've never quite got that. I never quite got that. I understand you want to show people what you're capable of doing, and you know, we've done stuff. I've done the Mike Tup thing at Watford, and you know, they put that on the website, which I was happy with, but I never changed where I was. I played their tennis now to laugh. Don't win in a warm-up for the 21s because the club had asked me to do it, which I'm fine with. But I wouldn't I wouldn't put stuff on my LinkedIn or about the session, and yeah, I just wouldn't do that. I think you're trying to glorify who you are and what you're doing, just let other people do that. Um let other people compliment you about the work you're doing, or actually go one better, get people in the first team, you know, get get get goalies, signing new contracts, getting moves. That's when you get a pat on the back, not putting on a session. And uh it's all a bit too mad for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:33

But couple last questions. What do you think? Because you've been through a great career and then you've gone into coaching. What do you think a young goalkeeper needs? What traits do they need? Because this is here to help people and help young goalkeepers. What do you think the main traits that they need?

Life After Football & Charity Boxing Project

SPEAKER_02 1:47:50

Yeah, we touched on it earlier, didn't we? In terms of like, first and foremost, to be a goalie, you need a real strong mentality. You know, you need to you need to believe in yourself, you need to back yourself, you need to out train the other goalie, you need to listen more than the other goalie, you need to be a quicker learner than the other goalie. There's all these things that are gonna make you better. Uh self-belief is massive, in my opinion. If you if you're not backing yourself as a goalie, then I think you can see that. I think that I think you can actually observe that that goalie's not quite sure about himself. Sometimes it can be a bit of a facade, sometimes it's almost like chest out, loud. There's an element of that. I'm not saying everyone's got to do that, but I think you have to you have to have that aura about you as a goalie, definitely. Uh be resilient, so important when you make mistakes. Don't let it fester. How quickly can you move on? You know, wait for that next action, get that one right, and then you can build, you know, could build from there. Can you make match-winning saves? Ultimately, can you keep the team in the game? Are you reliable? That's the biggest thing for me. You know, is he reliable? Well, I'll pick him every week. Has he let me down? Does he let me down? Is he good around the changing room? Uh does he lead in the right ways? Does he help people? You know, is he on time? Does he look the part? There's a there's a there's a list you could go on. What does the perfect player look like? Certainly, what does a perfect young player look like? And I think there's all of the above, really, everything I've just said. Uh but you'll be judged-listen, you'll be judged on performances and training and and in games. And I think just understand as a young goalie that opportunities are going to be few and far between, and your career can be short and heartbreakingly enough at times. I mean, just this week at Watford, you know, obviously, because my son's in the academy, they released a number of players this week at under 14s, and all and then that was a wake up call to my son a little bit, saying that this is reality, you know, this is this is tough. This is all you've ever wanted to do. This is your dream. Uh, all we ever talk about is football. All you want to do is play football, but you're no different to these lads that have just been released. So they're now gonna have to try and dust themselves down and pick themselves up and need support from family and friends. But but it's tough, it's hard for young goalkeepers, it's hard for young players in general because the margins, you know, the the opportunity, the competition, it's not in your favour. It's not in your favour. So to make it or to turn it at least close to being in your favour, you need to do, you know, everything that I've just mentioned. But but it takes dedication, takes drive, making sacrifices from a really young age. It's just something that you're gonna have to do. That's something that I did. So I'm trying to educate my son or do it himself. Uh but yeah, it's uh it's a long journey, but it's one worth doing. If you get to the top and you can experience some of the stuff that I've experienced, playing against some of the players I've played against, I've played with at stadiums, I've played in. It's like yeah, very quite true.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:02

And just finally, last question. Uh obviously you've transitioned again in your in your career, you're still doing the coaching stuff, and I know you're available for coaching at the moment, right? We'll see. But you've obviously you've obviously started doing some some really big charity work, I'd argue, and in in the charity boxing with ex-professional footballers. Do you want to tell people a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:24

Yeah, so I set up Pro Project Promotions uh just over a year ago, I think now. Uh, and I was having a lot of conversations with a lot of players uh over the last probably two, three years, sort of more or so, when players were sort of coming to the end of their career and leaving football. Uh, whether that would be sort of on the phone or in person, but there was a common theme that I was sort of getting at that that that some of the boys were finding it tough, finding it really hard, whether that was that they're missing that that structure, you know, that that that stability and you know, that goal, that end of the week, that training, that camaraderie, that connection, I think that was sort of they'd gone. Uh and I and I knew I I knew lads were finding it hard. Uh as I did at times, not brutally hard, not it was all mat, it was always manageable, but you have your up days and you have your down days and stuff. So I wanted to try and come up with a concept where we could all get involved, sort of try and create a platform where we could help each other to perform at some point. So, what's that end goal? It's a fight. What does that journey look like? It's 10 weeks of training in a camp, getting physically fitter, stronger, getting mentally better, uh, and having some structure and some routine, probably being happier. Uh, so it was it was trying to reconnect ex-athletes, ex-footballers, where we get together, we had a press conference recently, you know, 10 of the boys with stories for days, you know, nice to catch up with them, played against each other, played with each other, all going on this journey together to ultimately raise money. So we're trying to raise half a million pounds within a year. We're just short of 150 at a minute. We've got an event in the April at the Titanic Hotel on April the 17th, where we've got 10 more players, we hope to raise another 150k, and then we're back. Uh we're back at the Grover in September, but we've got Jamie Carragher, Francis Jeffers, uh, and Neil Raddock doing a football Q ⁇ A. Carla Keemy is a boxer, Carla Kimmy is a goalkeeper, and he'll be boxing in it. We had Paddy Kenny boxing it. So we've had a number of internationals that have that have been involved, Premier League players. Yeah, I mean we've had we've had a brilliant uptake uh from lads. I've been contacted by a number of lads, and I've had to let say I haven't let them down, but I've it's almost like a I've had to say, look, maybe for the next one, because we've you know we've been it's been quite been quite popular in the sense that people get it and people are going, do you know what? I do fancy that because I probably need that in my life right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:55

That purpose as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:57

Purpose is massive, yeah. When you're not working or or you are working, but it's not fulfilling, it's it's just uh you you you you're constantly trying to find ways of satisfying your yourself, and uh it's a bit different for me because I've got four kids, so you know I I'm busy with them, so that's sort of my life. Um, and then obviously coaching came alongside that, but but yeah, I I want to I was desperately thinking of something that what can I do? Uh golf days last five hours, six hours, bacon butting round the golf beer, gone home, don't see each other again. The charity football games last 90 minutes, you'll warm up, you have a beer in a bar, or you don't have a beer in a bar, you just shoot straight off. And that connection only lasts a really small period of time, and that sort of performing in front of a crowd, if you're playing in a charity game, is like even though there's probably 500 people there, it was still quite nice, you still feel pressure. But now getting in a boxing ring where it's going to be streamed live on talk sport boxing, I've got nearly 400,000 subscribers. There's the football world of watching, there's no two ways about it, because I know so many people that watched the last one at the Grover. Uh, and then we're potentially uh joining up with a global streaming partner, sports.com. So obviously access to Malaysia, Indonesia and stuff like that. So, but yeah, look, ultimately, it's about raising money. Secondly, to that, it's about uh helping these lads on a journey to to fulfil maybe a lifetime's ambition to get in a ring, maybe a bucket list. Uh, but and also it's a it's called a night to remember for a reason. We want it to be a special night of fun and entertainment, which is what we've delivered so far. So yeah, it's going well, I'm loving it. It's keeping me busy and it's uh it's getting me back into seeing players and and everything else.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:49

It's connection, right? So it's it's the connection. The biggest thing is connection, it's connecting to other players and getting that kind of that changing room back that you've missed.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:59

Because you've got a common, you've got c you've got common grounds, haven't you? You've got you've got so much in common, you can relate to each other because you just kind of both been there, or you've all been there. Yeah, so you understand it, but some it hits some harder than others, is what I found out. So, you know, some have been in a real bad place, others less so, but still need it as much as as as the other one does. So yeah, I just think it's a really it's a really good way of re-engaging with people and getting people back together and going on a journey, which has been yeah, it's been incredible so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:31

Yeah, I think it's amazing. So you're doing something for charity, doing something good, you're hitting your values of connecting with people, it gives players a purpose or something to train towards. Because I I struggle with that. And if I haven't got since I've finished football, it was like, right, I've got to create I created AstroTuff, which is a fitness business where it could be my own changing room and then move into Liverpool. I left that and I was like, right, I need to do some stupid events or something or something stupid to have something to train towards. Otherwise, I'm just training for no purpose, I'm training for no reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:02

Yeah, but it's good that you've got that mindset though, because you're not sat at home and you're not doing nothing. Because there's an easy way out. It's like, oh, world's against me, I've lost this, and I oh I've fallen out of her, or I've fallen out of him, and you know some people find that really hard just to go, right? I need to be motivated, I need to come up with something. It's not easy, it's really not easy because sometimes when you feel like the world's against you and you've got nowhere to turn, it's tough, which is why you need people around you that are gonna help and support you.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:32

Purpose is created, right? You can create your own purpose. So you've done it now. You've like, right, I this is what I need, it fulfills my values, which is basically connection, right? Yeah, but it connects it's the other values of you want to help people. You said that during the end of your career, you wanted to help people, and then it's a bigger, it's kind of a bigger purpose than us as well, like helping the charities that you that you do. So yeah, I think it's amazing, mate. I think it's really cool, and I I'm looking forward to getting some free tickets to the Titanic. I was just thinking that. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Anything you want to add?

SPEAKER_04 1:58:15

No, it's been incredible, mate. It's great to see you again after all these years as well. I'm glad to see yourself doing so well for yourself. So uh yeah, thanks for coming on. I know we've chewed you here off, but it's been nearly two hours, so that's nice, it's nice. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:27

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:28

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