Beyond The Box: Goalkeeping’s Untold Mindset, Mistakes and Madness
The mindset. The mistakes. The madness. This is football’s last line of defence - unfiltered. From iconic saves to brutal setbacks, Beyond the Box ® dives into the stories goalkeepers rarely tell, and no one else dares to.
Beyond The Box: Goalkeeping’s Untold Mindset, Mistakes and Madness
James Shea: My Untold Truth About Mental Health in Football
From non-league mud baths to the Premier League stage!
In this episode, Luton Town goalkeeper James Shea shares the brutally honest journey that took him from Harrow Borough and Needham Market all the way to the top of English football.
Shea reflects on life as an Arsenal academy kid, getting released, rebuilding in non-league, winning promotions with Wimbledon and Luton Town, and finally making his Premier League debut. He talks consistency as a goalkeeper, dealing with mistakes, becoming a dad, and how football fits into life, family and mental health.
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Today we're joined by a goalkeeper whose journey is one of the most inspiring stories in English football.
SPEAKER_00:If you would have said to me when I was at Harrowborough Need a Market, you're gonna play 20 minutes in the Premier League, I would have said never in a million years. No one can ever take that away from me.
SPEAKER_01:From being a youth star at Arsenal to rebuilding his career in non-league.
SPEAKER_00:Going to Harrowborough, it was brilliant the season before got to be on the bench in the Champions League and the headline was Montpellier to Market Men.
SPEAKER_02:He's a cornerstone of Luton Towns Rise, taking the club from League Two all the way to the Premier League across nearly a decade.
SPEAKER_00:The playoff final is one of the most stressful things I've ever been a part of, and you think we're not gonna win it.
SPEAKER_02:He's been a starter, a squad man, a leader in the dressing room, and a constant presence throughout Luton's incredible journey.
SPEAKER_00:Because I was playing and I was making mistakes. Everything you were doing, it ended up being wrong. The more the harder you tried, the harder it became. But I just remember thinking, I'm fucked.
SPEAKER_01:It's none other than James Shea. Shazy, welcome to the show, mate. Cheers, thank you for having me. So you obviously started your career off many, many years ago. Long time ago. Long time ago. Take us through your journey and your history, your story, and all the way through to where we are now.
SPEAKER_00:Uh to be fair, it started probably when I was a got scouted when I was like a kid, 10 years old. And I'm not gonna lie, I didn't even like playing in goal. I was actually injured from a little local team and I went in goal and I'd done really well. I got scouted from that, went over to Arsenal. Uh I was only meant to go over for a session or two, ended up staying for six weeks, eight weeks, I think it was about then. Ended up signing. And for me, I wasn't an Arsenal fan. I grew up around the corner from Highbury. So for me, it was a dream come true, even though I didn't like really playing in goal, if I'm honest with you.
SPEAKER_01:Bloody hell. So you didn't enjoy playing in goal. You weren't really a fan of being a goalkeeper, but you found yourself uh at well, probably even now still, but one of the largest teams in Europe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was uh it was it was weird because I thought when you know when you grow up, you think I want a bit of footballer, I want to be a midfielder. I wanted to be a midfielder. And then when I was in goal, I probably didn't really start taking it seriously towards probably what 15, if I'm honest with you. I was still playing for my local team out on pitch as much as I could. But then when it got to 15, 16, then you start thinking, right, I need to start taking it a bit more serious because I've got to try and make a career of it. And then it worked up from then, if I'm honest with you. And thankfully I made the right decision, sticking with it and touch wood, still going strong.
SPEAKER_02:So I've got a big question. Uh, all goalkeepers failed footballers because that's the same as me as well. I'm thinking I'm fucking shit.
SPEAKER_00:To be fair, I love playing on pitch. I could never do it. I would when I look look at the players now, how much they run and everything, I could never I couldn't I couldn't think of anything worse than running, like what they do. Uh, I had an older brother who used to stick me in goal as well. So I've got him to thank for for all of it. But yeah, I probably wouldn't have made it as an outfield. But if there's a chance to go out on pitch and train or anything like that, stand on the sides of a keep ball, I I love doing it all. I do, even now.
SPEAKER_02:So, what was it like coming up through Arsenal? Who is the people you looked up to when you were coming through?
SPEAKER_00:So, coming through, like being an Arsenal fan and everything, the main man, David Seaman, as a goalkeeper. But my favourite player ever was Burkamp. For me, he is Arsenal's greatest ever player. I know people going about Henry and everything like that, but he was absolutely incredible. So I'd I'd say him, but as a goalkeeper, David Seaman. Uh then as I was getting older, you had people like Lehman, him going through what he'd done at Arsenal. And then when you go over there full-time, then you've got people like Almunia, Fabiansky, uh, he was only just a little bit older than me, but like Chesny as well. There was one unbelievable goalkeepers and two unbelievable people as well. They were so I've I've been very fortunate to grow up and have them to look up to as well.
SPEAKER_02:What is it about them as people? What defines them as people and makes them really good people? Because I think people forget sometimes that footballers we look put them up here, but actually they're people, and a lot of people are really, they're really cool.
SPEAKER_00:I was just telling you before uh story about a Fabiansky, absolute legend of a man. So uh I went to him one day, I said, uh, is there any chance you can sort us out a pair of gloves? He was uh with all sport at the time, and he was like, Yeah, no problem, no problem at all. I thought, oh, I think he's gonna sort me out a pair of gloves. About three days later, he comes and finds me in the change room and oh I got you some gloves. He's got me a box for about 15, 16 pairs of gloves. Uh and I'll never forget there was old the old Pepe Reynolds ones he used to wear. He had my name put on them and everything, and I thought, and he was like, Here you go. And I was thinking, that's unbelievable. Harry's just giving me that. And for him to do that, I'll never, I've never forgotten it. And I tell the story all the time to people. So I always like to try and be like that, especially with the young kids coming through, like at Luton and stuff. So if they ever need gloves and stuff, there's anything I could do to help them out, I try and help him out as much as I can because I think it's the right thing to do. And I always go back to how he was with me, and he he was incredible.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's like a defining point. So that was a core memory about giving. Yeah. So just giving to people, and I think that's what we do, what we do now. I had the same thing with me when I was younger, and there was a defining point for me where I was like, ah, unbelievable. You don't forget it either.
SPEAKER_00:You don't forget that do not forget, and it's always stuck into my head. And funny enough, I uh when we played West Ham a couple years ago, I got to I see him because I've not seen him for a long time, and I mentioned it to him, and he didn't even remember. He didn't even remember, he was just and I said, What you done for me back then was unbelievable. He's like, No problem at all. Again, legend of a man he was an unbelievable goalkeeper. And he's come back now, he's gone back to West Ham, even though he's he retired, and yeah, just incredible.
SPEAKER_02:What did you learn from all them goalkeepers? What traits did you pick up to put into your games?
SPEAKER_00:All different things, really. Uh I was uh like with Chesney, uh he star in position. I used to look at him, I think he's always always on his front foot on the edge of the book for anything over the top. So I tried to take that off him. Uh again, Fabiansky was very similar. Fabiansky was very good technically, he's sharp around the box, and what I liked about Almuna was he was just calm, calm, nothing could uh ruffle him or anything like that. So I tried to take all little things from all these goalkeepers and try and put them into my game, but then try and not take away from my attributes as well. So my attributes are technically like technically I'd like to think I'm I'm I'm alright. So technically, I think I'm I'm good at that. Uh and I've learnt what I've what I've learned as I've got older is the things I'm good at and the things I'm not as good at, and I know my limits, really. So like I'm not a six foot five goalkeeper that's gonna come for every single cross or anything like that. I'm six foot two, and uh who wears that an extra inch, don't we? Who weighs six three, and uh you can I can come for what I can come for. So I've learned that as I've got older as well, if I'm honest with you. So so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:A lot of goalkeepers like struggle with that. So you say that your your strengths are your technical ability and and some other things in your game as well, perhaps experience now because you played a lot of games. A lot of goalkeepers wrestle with that idea of wanting to be able to do everything, but really they are not limited, but they just specialise in certain things. So, when was the point in your career where you realised these are things that I'm really good at, and these are the things that I maybe still need to work on, but these are like my super strengths.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh I probably couldn't tell you when. I think, like you said, as as I get gotten older, more experienced and stuff like that, it's just become more natural, if I'm honest with you. Uh, another story, I remember speaking to Harry Eistead, his goalkeeper just gone on loan to uh just time for Forest Green. And he'd come to me one day and he said, because he was on loan at somewhere, and one week he'd be nine out of ten, and then he'd uh be an eight, and then he might have a little dip it'd be a five, it'd be quite inconsistent. And he came to me and said, How do you just be consistent? Like like seven out of ten every week. And you get that with experience, and I'd say that's what I am. I'm very consistent. My seven out of ten, I'm not gonna be a nine, one week, uh four and stuff like that. I like to think I'm quite consistent. Nothing special, but uh I am what I am, and uh I think as you get older you uh you just learn what you're good at and what you can do. And I I try and tell the young boys this now uh if everyone wants to make the top corner saves and everything, but you've got to make sure you make the saves that uh uh you're expected to make first, if I'm honest with you.
SPEAKER_02:So we always say that and you just said it's nothing special, but actually we think it is. So seven out of ten every week is special because most goalkeepers are as you said, nine, four, and if you what you want as a goalkeeper is consistency, of course, that's what you need consistency, reliability.
SPEAKER_00:I think especially when you're younger, you're gonna be like that. Of course you are, because you're learning learning your trade and everything. But I think as you get older, if you can, like I said, learn what you you're good at and what you're what you're not so good at, but learn how to deal with that, I think you put yourself in a in a great place.
SPEAKER_02:It's like self-awareness, isn't it? So self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and I do think you get that as you get older. So, how did you learn, how did you learn that? Have you ever done any mindset training or psychology?
SPEAKER_00:I've never done anything. Never done anything.
SPEAKER_02:We've got a great programme.
SPEAKER_00:I've never done anything to be fair, and I must admit, the hardest time I've had in my career was when I had a baby. Uh I had a baby and it, I'm not gonna lie. I I used to live in a little bubble. I'd go home from training every day, have a little sleep, wake up, have a bit of dinner, and just put it on repeat. And then the baby came along and it just done me. It done me and it did. She was waking up two o'clock in the morning, couldn't sleep, and then it really affected me. It did, and I was 24, I think, at the time. So I'd say that was my hardest time. But I've had two other uh girls since, and it's never been as bad as that now. So that was the hardest time, and I thought, get through this, I can get through anything because nothing worse than lack of sleep and waking up, going to play, and I weren't playing well at the time as well. So everything was was coming on top, and so I think that was the hardest time, it will never be as hard as that again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, what's mad is until you have kids, you think you think you have no time. She's like, Oh, I've got no time, I've got no time, and then you realise what did what the hell did I do? Honestly, I think so single that rather than kids yet. Honestly, it is the maddest time you don't you don't sleep. You it's you I remember walking into the gym, like you said, I remember no sleep up all night, walking into the gym, going, right, I'm gonna train. And I walked in there, I went, nine. Because I'm so I'm so gone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember sitting in the fizzle room one time, I had acupuncture in my groins, and I fell asleep. I literally fell asleep with the acupuncture in my groins. I I was so tired. And until you experience it, it is the worst feeling ever. Thankfully, it did get easier, and now that I've had two more, it was nowhere near as bad as that because it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_02:Probably a change of routine, right? So you just uh as a players, you got you're up, you're in, you get your food, your train, you're back, so you got that routine and then it'll be done by half two, yeah, and then it's done.
SPEAKER_00:And then you go home. Uh, Mrs. was at work, so I'd have a little afternoon nap, wake up, then go get her from work, and then we'll have a bit of dinner. And then it just all changed. I think I've ever had an afternoon nap then.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it is a mental change. I still go through that an hour. Like you try and ring me, I'm like, I've got no chance, mate. I've got no chance, I can't even I can't even think at the moment. It it's the craziest time, the craziest time, and then you suddenly have this little person that you've got to be responsible for. You're like, yeah, what the hell, what the hell did I do with all my time beforehand? Sorry, mate. I feel like I've it's fine. You didn't have a kid's dumb, it's good. It's great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is it is great. Did your did your perspective change? Because we we have this conversation a lot, don't we? Like Bish, for example, who's just had another kid, and everyone that we speak to, pros, when they when they have children, they're they say that their perspective about football and their purpose changes. Did your shift as well?
SPEAKER_00:Massively. So my whole life was football, football, football. Uh I remember when I first met my my wife, so I'd get to 10 o'clock, we'd be I'd be messaging her, and they're like, Gotta go to bed now, speak to tomorrow, just cut her dead completely because I had football next day, so my whole life was football, and it was like that for for years, and then the little one comes along, and then football takes back step because you've got a little one to look after, to provide for, and that's all that matters if I'm honest with you. And don't get me wrong, football is important, but I think as you get older as well, you realise it more and more. It's just a game of football. If I'm honest with you, and your family, your kids, that's what matters.
SPEAKER_02:So taking you back, you were at Arsenal, you ended up getting released. Yeah. And what age were you? 21, 22, I think it was.
SPEAKER_00:Gutted. Really gutted, and it was all I knew. And so when I got released, and I thought I'd get somewhere else, I'll go somewhere else. I was gutted, but I thought I'd go somewhere else. Never got a phone call, never had nothing. And then I'm sitting there thinking, right, what am I gonna do? So season started and uh my goal team coach at the time was Tony Roberts. And I asked him, so I've come and just keep myself ticking over until something comes up. Yeah, come in, no problem. Uh and the funny thing is I actually trained with the first team every single day, and which was was mental. So they were brilliant with me, Arsenal. They were fantastic, they let me come in every single day. And then it got to about October time, I think it was. I got a phone call from the manager at Needham Market. And he asked me, Oh, do you want to come down and play a play a game? They've got a FA Cup qualifier. I said, Yeah, no problem. So I went down and played. It was against their local rivals as well, so it was a good game, Sudbury. And uh we won that. Uh then they got to the next, so we got to the next round, they had a Cambridge. He said, Oh, do you mind coming down again and playing in this game? I said, Yeah, no problem. It's probably the best game I've ever played, if I'm honest with you. And uh it was funny because our uh head of media at Luton Night, he was at the game. He was doing the non-league radio, and uh he even till this day says it was one of the best performances he's ever seen because he went on the non-league radio and uh he was talking about it. But uh as that was happening, I was uh I got a phone call from the manager at Harrow Borough, Dave Anderson, uh, because he was friends with Tony Roberts. He said, Do you want to come down to Harrow uh just play some games? And he said he'd do his best to try and get me back in back in the league, um, full-time football. I said, Yeah, perfect. It was closer to home as well, because driving down to Newton Market was was tough. I crashed my car on the way down there one time as well, uh, which weren't pleasant. Uh so I ended up going to Harrowborough, uh, but uh Stuart, Stuart and a fellow from Luton, he was saying uh on the radio, I've just seen great uh performance, skulking performance from James Shea. And uh Dave messaged him saying stop talking about Shazy because I'm signing him into in the morning. He said, So uh he even to this day now, Stu still goes on about this this story. So I ended up going to sign for for Harrow Borough, and I must admit, it was probably the best thing I ever done. I said, as I said to you before, I wish I'd done it when I was say 18 instead of uh 22, if I'm honest with you. But I was still training at Arsenal, so I still trained at Arsenal every single day, and then went and played for Harrow.
SPEAKER_02:So why why do you wish you did it earlier?
SPEAKER_00:Because I wish I went into men's football sooner. So I was at Arsenal, I got comfortable. I went on loan to Daganham first, never played, so it was a waste of time. Uh whole point of going on loan is to play games. And to be fair, I went to Daganham and they had Chrissy Lewin in there, and he he started with Chrissy at first, and Chrissy done really, really well for him. So I had no complaints. So I went back in December, January time, I think it would have been. And I just was stayed at Arsenal ever since, and then it got to 21, 22. I've not played any men's football and I get released. So I I wish I'd done went to went lower uh to the Ryman Prem when I was 18 and done it that way. Because uh we had a there was a young boy Josh Vickers as well, he went to Canvie Island and he went Canvie Island, then he went Concord. So he by the time he left Arsenal, he had 50, 60 games in non-league. So it it helped him. I just I just wish I'd done the same thing, but listen, I wouldn't change it for the world because it's it's worked out in the end. I just wish I'd done it sooner.
SPEAKER_01:Why didn't what I was gonna ask about why why didn't you take the jump? Because there are a lot of goalkeepers who are in 21's programs, 18's programs, who are happy at the likes of Arsenal. Do you know what?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if it's frowned upon to go that low. I think it might be frowned upon. Like it never ever come up. I think if you're gonna go online, I went online to Daglam in League Two at the time, and I've you think, right, I'll go to Dagenham, I do really well, get in team of year, get gold glove, get everything, and it's not easy. It's really, really tough. So I I think that doesn't help me. I just think to go to a Ryan Prem team when you're at a big club, oh sorry, is frowned upon. But Joshy done it, and it was, I'm sure Joshy will say the same thing, it was the best thing he ever done.
SPEAKER_01:I'm surprised that it was never like promoted to you because now like clubs can't get out, right?
SPEAKER_00:I think now they do it more, more so now, but when when I was a uh 17-18, I don't think it was I think it was unheard of. I think you go to a League Two conference at at not worst, but at best. And but to go to a Ryan Prem, it was unheard of. It was. But I said I just wish I'd done that when I was 18 and went and got 50, 60 games in either the Ryan Prem, conference SAF, and work built me way up that way. I wish I'd done that. But it weren't meant to be. I had to do it when I was 22.
SPEAKER_01:Hindsight.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, of course. But again, I was comfortable at Arsenal. I was sitting there at Arsenal, I got on the bench a few times, I think this is nice to train with the first team. It's it's it's happy days, but then they let you go and you think, right, I've got to go somewhere else now. And then when the phone call don't don't come, you you panic a little bit, you think, right, what am I gonna do? Because if if I would have got to the end of that season and not gotten back into football full time football, I would like to go and get another job. And I'm not gonna lie, I wouldn't have had a clue what to do.
SPEAKER_02:If I'm honest with you, what would you have done?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Probably gone and work for me, old man or something like that. I would have had to. He's in building trades, so I've had to go and work for him.
SPEAKER_02:How did you find the contrast between being at Arsenal and then going to non-league?
SPEAKER_00:I loved it. Like going to Harrowborough and Needham Market, it was brilliant. Needham Market was a massive eye-opener. So the season before I was on the bench, I got to be on the bench in the Champions League. And at the time they had a local paper, and the headline was Montpellier to Market Men. And I don't know if you've ever been to Needham Market. It's not really a tunnel, it's like a house you walk out of. You go up the stairs. And I remember walking, and the one of the Sudbury players came out and going, Here he is, boys. Is the big time uh the Arsenal boy? I'm thinking, oh my god, I do not need this right now. First cross comes in, smashes me. I think this is this is nice, innit? But we ended up winning, uh, I think it was 2-1 at the time, and I loved it. I loved everything about it. I did, and again, the Cambridge game loved it, and then going to Harrow Borough, Dave Anderson was brilliant for me. So we'd train Tuesday, Thursday, play Saturday. He said I'd only have to, because he knew I was training at Arsenal. He said, just turn up on the Thursday, train on the Thursday, and playing the games on the Saturday. And when the winter comes, games get called off left, right, and centre. I think at one point we went uh Saturday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I did. And I'd say to any young goalkeeper now, go and play. Go out and play. It don't matter what level it is, just go play, get experiences, make your mistakes. I made I made plenty of mistakes. Remember getting sent off uh New Year's Day, Kingstone, no, not because Met Police at home. Try to flip one. I fixed it straight to their player, brought them down, sent off.
SPEAKER_01:The hangover game.
SPEAKER_00:The funny thing was right. The funny manager got sent off just before. So I've had to walk in the change room, and Dave's sitting in the change room, and so he goes, You ain't gonna do that again. Are you? No, I'm not won't do that again. But I learned, I learned and touched wood, I've not done it again. But uh, it was the best thing I ever done. And thankfully, uh Dave used to be the manager at Wimbledon, so he was pushing me to move for Wimbledon to take a look at me. And uh funny enough, the Met Police the following game, we played Met Police uh in the uh later on in the season. Uh Ashley Bays, Bezo, the goalkeeping coach, walking down the tunnel. I was walking up and he's going, Shays up, how are you, son?
SPEAKER_04:How are you?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know who he was. So I went, hello mate, how are you? Are you all right? Uh so I walked in and goes, Oh, that's the Wimbledon uh goalkeeping coach, come to watch her. Blinded, yeah, just before I'm out to play. And uh thankfully, I can't remember what the score was. We won. I think I must have done all right because uh they invited me in to train. So I went in for a couple of weeks, done a bit of training, ended up playing a game at the end of the season, played in that, and then I think I was going on a trial at Yoval. So I was driving down to Yoval, got down to Yoval, and then that night Bezor wrote me said, Listen, we want to sign you. So it was pretty much done then, if I'm honest with you. He keeps popping up everywhere. I was just literally going from my head.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, no, it's everyone. I was like, Is he not good? Is he gonna be not mentioned in a podcast? And now it's like an aim to get his name in every podcast because by the time you we done it, we done him last week. Yeah, so that's an exciting one. So everyone who's listening to this, his one would be out and everyone would know who the hell he is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's a blinder. You hear him before you see him. Love that one, loved that one. And uh, fun enough, he's having a testimonial dinner tomorrow night, which I'm looking forward to going down, I'm sure. But he was brilliant for me, he was really, really good. He was everything I needed in a goalkeeping coach, he'd push her every single day, made it enjoyable, uh, but was serious when it had to be serious as well. So he was unbelievable for me. He was I loved working with him.
SPEAKER_01:What is it about him? I know we've we've asked this question.
SPEAKER_00:He's literally everyone, yeah, he is, and like he loves goalkeeping, loves everything about it he does. Like there's no he does nothing half-hearted, everything in he's fully invested in. And if you're his goalkeeper, he will treat you like a son. Sorry, and it will do everything for you, he'll talk to you. Uh so like I got on really well with Bezo, so like we were quite close. So I'd finished training, I'd driving him to the train station in King's Cross from the training ground, New Maldon, and we'd just have a chat, which is not always about football, just about everything. So, like I said, he was absolutely brilliant for me. He was I I loved working with him. Even now, when I see him, it's like I've I've never been away. And like I said, you're in before you see him. But I'm not no one's had a bad word to ever say about it. And the amount of goalkeepers he's produced, proofs in the pudding.
SPEAKER_01:I think good people don't know. I mean, think I think in football, good people always end up helping other good people. Yeah. So when you come across someone like him or someone like yourself, and you've got that chemistry between two people, the only result, nine times out of ten, is success. Yeah. So he came to watch you that day, called you in the car, said that he was gonna sign you. What what happened after that?
SPEAKER_00:I was like, yeah, perfect. Because I'm not gonna lie, I went down to Yoval. I'm quite homely person, I don't really want that moving. I've never had to move and don't want to, and Yovel was a million miles away from anything. So I didn't really want to go down to Yeoval. So, but I ended up doing the trail down at Yoval. Uh, and then I went back and I said to Space, I want to I'll done, fine, perfect. And all I wanted was a chance. Someone's giving me a chance. And they give me the chance, and thankfully, they took a they took a chance on on me. Uh, give me the platform to play games in in League Two at the time. Uh, had a really good first year, and like the second year, I struggled, had a baby, had a couple injuries, and I really, really struggled. I did. Um and then we ended up getting promoted the second year in League One. I didn't start the season, but then I got in and I felt like I had a really good season. And then I remember the manager pulling me in his office with a game or two to spare and said, listen, I think we're gonna go down a different route because my contract was up. And I'm not gonna lie, again, I was gutted, absolutely gutted, because I felt like I earned a new contract as well. Like we was in it was our first year in League One, we finished mid-table, it was a really good season, and I felt like I had a good season, and but they wanted to go down a different route. Not a problem, gutted, and then again, I was at home waiting for something, nothing come, uh, nothing come about. And you know what it's like when boys are going back for pre-season, you're sitting there waiting, end up getting a phone call from me agent saying, Oh, Luton wanna have a talk with you. You wanna go into Luton? I said, Yeah, no problem. So I went into Luton, spoke to Nate, and he said, Listen, we've signed, they signed Marek Steck at the time, and uh you'd be coming in like a number two, but pushing Stecky. I thought, yeah, no problem, no problem at all. So I ended up signing for Luton just as an as a number two to push Stecky, and me getting released by Wimbledon was probably the best thing that ever happened to me, if I'm honest with y'all, because I've had a great time at Luton, it's been some ride.
SPEAKER_02:Ain't it amazing that sometimes an adversity can actually, in hindsight, be one of the best things that ever happened to us. The same as me. I had a bit of a meltdown when I was 27, like this same thing. Well, after there were two meltdowns, actually. I go for the first one looking after my mountainero disease, and then mum went through cancer, and I didn't tell anyone, put the face on melting. Yeah, second one was same thing. Had mum was my mum was terminally ill, had a baby at the same time as my mum died. So at the same time, you said the baby's hard. My mum died then at the same time. Well, I just moved to Liverpool, so I was like all over the gaff. So I just want to bring you back before we get into the loot and stuff. You said you struggled, so hence why I've brought that in. You said you struggled. Was it struggled? You said you had an injury and then you had the baby. Was it physically? And I was playing bad. That's what? And I was playing terrible. Yeah. So did you struggle mentally and physically, or was it both?
SPEAKER_00:Uh certainly physically, mentally, I I can't remember if I'm honest with you, but I just remember thinking, I'm fucked. If I'm honest with you. And everything I was trying to do, I tried to do more training, more everything, and it just weren't working. And it was the best thing that happened to me was I got taken out of the team. That was probably the best thing that happened to me. I could probably just get away from the pressures of it, because I was playing and I was making mistakes. And it was stupid ones as well. And I was frustrated uh as well, and it just everything you was doing, it ended up being wrong. The more the harder you tried, the harder you'd harder it'd become. You try hard and you mess. It would, it really would. It really would. So me getting taken out was was the best thing for me in the end. It was ended up bringing uh Kel Ruse in and he ended up having doing really, really well. Fantastic, and he ended up getting us promoted. So in that sense it worked out because then I got to play League One as well. But before that, I remember so we signed uh Ryan Clark when we went into League One and Clark he started the season, and I remember Bezos coming to me and saying, Listen, there's a chance we've had a club come in for you. Do you want to go out on loan? And I just said no, I don't want to go out on loan. And thankfully, I I got in a couple of weeks later and ended up standing for pretty much the whole season. Missed a couple games towards the end. Maca went in, done well. Uh, but then they decide to go down a different room. Really? But and and like I said, hindsight, best thing that ever happened to me.
SPEAKER_02:It's a weird one. We always say, we always say we need to be sometimes work smarter, not harder.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The cliche less is more. Yeah, yeah. So we can't do too much. Can't do too much, and then when you try too hard and you force it, you become worse because you're trying too hard, and then you end up making more mistakes.
SPEAKER_00:But then people might question, oh, is he working hard enough? Is he doing everything right? You can do everything right, you can work even harder, and it just goes against you. And again, I've learned this as I've got older. You don't have to work 55 times harder or anything like that. You just need to do what works for you, and if it's worked for you in the in the past, just trust your routines, trust everything you do, that will come good again. But everyone's gonna go through tough times, it's just part of football. I've never known anyone just to go like that and it'd be happy days and everything. No, it don't work like that. You're gonna have tough times where it makes you a better goalkeeper and makes you a better person as well, because you've realized what you've been through, and to come through it, know you've come through it as well. You know you can go through anything.
SPEAKER_02:So we always say form is a mindset problem, not a skill set problem. So you still have the same technical ability, it's just your thinking changed. So, what changed thinking?
SPEAKER_00:You worry.
SPEAKER_02:You was it fear, was it fear-based? Yeah, what was the fear?
SPEAKER_00:Of making a mistake. You think right, you turn up to gauge thinking, I hope I don't make a mistake today. I keep that ball as far away from me as possible. Or anything comes in, don't drop it, don't drop it. Or like you turn up, see if the pitch is a little bit bothered, you think, oh I don't need one pass back to it, or the sun's out, oh I can't see that, or it's windy, I hope the wind don't go over me. You just instead of thinking positively, you just think of everything that can go wrong for you. And it's a horrible place to be, it is. But it's a part and parcel of a football, really, if you're honest. And I've noticed that like I speak to the young boys over Luton, they think the same things. Like uh foot, they talk to me about night games, thinking waiting about all day, think worrying about the game and everything. I just try and now I try and tell them it's just a game of football. Don't worry about it. You you train every single day to sh to show what you can do in games. The games will is where you're supposed to showcase yourself. So and I say to them, you are gonna make mistakes. There's nothing you can do, you will make mistakes. That's how you recover from them, how you move on from them, really.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing though, because the fact that you're having those conversations with them makes them almost like normalise it in their own heads. Because now they think, well, Shazy's going through it, he's been through it in his career. That must mean it's normal for goalkeepers to feel this way. We speak to a lot of goalkeepers, and literally everyone struggles with the same things. It just never gets spoken about because there's this like stigma in football where if you talk about fear or anxiety or confidence issues or form issues, it's almost like seen as a weakness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, of course. And it's scary because everyone's had the same, every goalkeeper has the same worries. You think I bet you don't worry about it. He does worry about that, everyone worries about it, but it's how you manage to deal with the anxiety of what you're thinking and stuff like that. It's it's a horrible thing because when you when you're worrying about, oh, I might not catch that, or it's a bit slippery the ball, or like even when you're in the wall, I feel like that ball that's a bit slippy today. Not sure about that. But I think as you get older, as soon as the game starts, you you're involved, and it's always nice to get you a nice early touch, I must admit. But as you get with again, with age, you just become more comfortable with yourself and your game.
SPEAKER_02:It's experience, right? So you can you could hear it as you're talking, your internal voice. So basically, you're talking, you were saying your internal voice out loud books. The night games they've never played on Brimsdown on a Tuesday night when the lights are like that. The lights they're not so high.
SPEAKER_00:To be fair, I'm playing a game a few years ago. Uh play a uh 21s game, and we've played at where was it? Modern Tick Tree. Uh the light. Oh my god, it was planning dark. I could not see the ball. I'm standing there thinking, I can't see this ball.
SPEAKER_02:And you can when it's just there, lose it the other way, you lose it, and then you go, keep away, keep away, there it is!
SPEAKER_00:It was so dark. I'm thinking if he shoots it, I'm I'm big, big. And I remember playing, I did not enjoy that one bit, if I'm honest with you. And it's little things like that, you you don't realise they make such a big difference. Like people on the sides thinking, just catch the ball, it's don't matter. You're standing there thinking, these lights sound great, and the ball, oh I'm not too sure. People goalkeepers are completely different to anyone else. What goalkeepers have to go through is horrible.
SPEAKER_02:I remember walking out when I was at Enfield Town, so we used to play at Brimsdown, and the lights on my when you say there, they were the worst. So someone cross it and you see it, and then it's black, and then it's on you. So I remember walking out, it was when the the psychology started. I walk out with a goalkeeper and I try and be nice to him. I'd be like, That keeper, I'm just gonna warn you now. Lights here, like you can't see it. So just be aware. Planting that seed, and you just see them all come flapping from keepers in it. I'm an asshole.
SPEAKER_01:Anything to win, right? Anything to win. I I think as well, like you're playing games, don't you, when when you're on loan or you're playing in non-league. But those horrible experiences where you can't see the ball, you're playing on a terrible pitch, or you're getting elbowed in the box on set pieces, those moments prepare you for when you step back into the league because it means slightly more because you're playing for more, yeah, but you're prepared now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, again, like when I was at how about some of the pitches we'd play on, like they'd be like swamps. I remember playing that Ellsmeade. Ellesmeade, Billy Ricky, before they done it all up with the Astro and everything. That was it was a swamp. Hampton and Richmond, the goal math was just pure mud.
SPEAKER_02:It's on a hill as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I loved it. I I I I absolutely loved everything about it I did. And I always go back to so when I'm playing now, or if I'm not playing, I always think back to I was at Harrowborough playing. If you would have said to me at Harrowborough, you'd be at Luton, in the championship, in League One, wherever, I would have bit your hand off for it all day long.
SPEAKER_01:Do you look backwards then? So now obviously you've been in the league for a number of years. Whenever you get your chances now, depending on what role you're playing in the season, do you ever think back to those moments in non-league and go, look how far I've come and look what I've done in the past? All the time. Because we're we're really big on this idea, it's called gap and the gain. So confidence and success comes from looking backwards. So you always feel like you're chasing something in the future, a place where you're trying to get to, but actually, you can always measure your progress in your career from where you were previously. So do you ever look back on where you've come from and gone, yeah, fucking hell, I've done really well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. Like, I'm I know it was only 20 minutes, but I got to play in the Prem. I played 20 minutes in the Prem, and no one can ever take that away from me. And again, if you would have said to me when I was at Harry Borough and Need a Market, you're gonna play 20 minutes in the Premier League, I would have said never in a million years. So to be able to do that, and don't get me wrong, listen, I know 20 minutes, but no one can ever take that away from me.
SPEAKER_02:But there's not many people who ever get to play in the Premier League or get to have that Premier League sign on their shirt, and people forget that. So we always look to go, oh, I wish this and I wish this. But the fact is, you had the opportunity to do it. So I speak to a lot of players now and they're in the gap, right? We talked about that gap in the game, and they go, Oh, I need to be here and I should be doing this, I should be this. I said, rewind two years that you told me you'd love to do this and you're doing it, but now you're here, you feel like shit. Two years ago, you'd have bitten my hand off. If I said you're gonna be in this position in two years' time, you'd have gone, I'll give you any money to be in the position I'm in right now.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. I and I'm not gonna lie, I do that a lot. Do that a lot, especially when uh say you get dropped or anything like that, and you don't agree with it or you're upset or you're having a tough time uh just not feeling it or anything like that. I always go back to my time at Harabor and Needemark, and I think if you're telling me in I don't know, in 10 years' time you're gonna still want to be in football league getting paid to do what you love, I can't complain. I can't complain. And I like to think I wake up every single day and I love it. I love going into training, I love going in uh being around the lads, uh being at Luton is a great club. And I wake up every single day and I absolutely love it. So I'm I'm very lucky in that sense.
SPEAKER_01:What's one piece of advice that you'd give to a non league goalie now trying to get back into the league? Just keep playing. Keep playing.
SPEAKER_04:And if you do well, you will get picked up.
SPEAKER_00:But there's no point not playing and just training. Because no one's gonna take you seriously. Not seriously, no one's gonna look at you unless you're playing games. So if you're playing in non-league and playing well, you will find your level. Someone will come in and and and take you if you're doing well, I think.
SPEAKER_02:I remember a goalkeeper I played against, and he done really well. Was it Justin? Justin. Justum something. Oh it just him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And he daggum, didn't he? Yeah, Blutham as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So he he was at the other side of the picture of me, and he wore like, I was like, don't look like a goalie, but he's massive, isn't he? Yeah, and he the literally got the ball and pumped it into the box. And I was like, but he's done so well. Yeah. Non-league goalie. And at that time, I didn't think oh well, I didn't think oh, he's gonna go make it pro. Nothing special, but you look at his career he's had a great career. Unbelievable career.
SPEAKER_00:I think he left Dagenham last year. I think it was that Dagan for a long, long time. He was at Luton before uh before last signed, and uh he's got a great, great song. He has. Can you sing it? Can I swear? Yeah, you can do what you want. Brilliant then brilliant.
SPEAKER_02:So, how's the Luton journey gone so far? So, you've signed for Luton, you've been there how many years now?
SPEAKER_00:This is my ninth season.
SPEAKER_02:Testimonial coming up.
SPEAKER_00:Nah. Ever since I've joined, I must admit I've loved every single minute of it. I remember when I like I said, when I joined, I remember speaking to the goalkeeping coach at the time, it was Kev Deirdon. And I remember him we was walking up, and again, we talk about this story all the time. We was walking up, there was cages now I said Jim at Loon's training ground, and he said, Oh, just come in. Uh, we've signed Stecky, but we want you to come in, push Stecky, blah blah blah. And uh nine years later, I'm still there. Uh, just can't get rid of me. But um to be fair, when I joined, Stecky started the season, and Stecki was incredible. I've he was honestly an absolute joke. Like it was saving everything. He was um unbelievable. And then I managed to get in the team towards the end of the season. I think I played the last eight or nine games. We got promoted uh at League Two, which was brilliant. Got promoted at Carlisle away. So we had a great bus journey back. Oh bet. Oh, brilliant, brilliant.
SPEAKER_01:It was any anything you can share from that bus journey?
SPEAKER_00:No, you know what, right? I'll just remember so we got promoted. Uh we've left the grand and we've pulled up at the train station, and it's just full of Luton. And the coaches pulled over and the the doors open, the boys are just jumping out, just celebrating with them. And it was it was a great journey back. Songs were were were going off, it was it was brilliant. It was Glen Ray. What a bo, what a boy! It was he was incredible. But uh we get promoted, and then we go to League One, and no one expected us to go up again. So we thought we thought, oh, we might have an outside chance getting in the playoffs. We got a we had a good team, and we didn't start, so we didn't start well. So Stecky played the first couple games, and then I got in, and then we went on an unbelievable run. I think we went 28 games unbeaten. At any level, that's that's really good. But for League One, it's like everyone beats everyone, like football league, everyone beats everyone. So to do 28 games, it was unbelievable. And then it got down to last couple games. We played Wimbledon on a Tuesday night, and we had to win. And they had Ramsdale playing from Wimbledon at the time, and he put in one of the best goalkeeping performances I have ever seen. He was an absolute joke, and they managed to nick a point, they scored in the last minute to nick a point, and fun actually kept him up that year. And then we went to Burton the following week, and we're thinking, right, all we've got to do, I think we needed a point or a win to go up. Went to Burton, turn up, it is blowing an absolute gal down the pitch. I'm thinking, oh my god, I do not need this. Somehow we were 1-0 up at half time, and then you're thinking, right, we've got the win with us second half. Burton turned into Barcelona, they had nothing to play for, there was a joke. The wind died completely at half time, and they ended up losing 2-1. And we're sitting there thinking, we're gonna throw it, we could throw this away here. And so the last game of the season we had Oxford at home, but there was a game in the midweek, uh Portsmouth versus Peterborough, I think it was. And if Portsmouth would have won that, it would have gone down to last day, but Peterborough ended up drawing, so we was up. And we're sitting at home and I'm celebrating at home, thinking, sorry, we're in the championship. It's incredible. And then it got to last game, we won. And I didn't realise uh um I had a chance of winning the golden glove. I don't actually know, and then I let one in. I thought, oh, I'm not gonna win it now. Uh Alan Davis sat uh Barnesley's gonna win it. Um and then someone shouted over to me saying, Oh Barnesley, they've let her go in. So winning up sharing the golden glove. So as I don't think I'd get anything, I just thought I'd got most clean sheets in the league. So I've gone up the tunnel, some fellas pulled me into little side room at Loon and said, Oh, we've got your trophy here. I thought, that's unbelievable. I'm over the moon about this, and I must admit, I don't have a lot to do that season. Uh I'd just stand there not doing much because we had such a good team, it was it was quite an easy season for goalkeeping wise. I don't have anything to do. Turn up for a couple of games and managed to nick a golden glove out of it, if I'm honest with you. But we had an unbelievable team, and then to go back-to-back promotions straight into the championship, it was it was really good. First year in the championship was was tough. Um, Nathor left us to go to Stoke and Mick finished the season. Then they brought in Graham Jones, and the jump from the League One to the championship is massive. Absolutely massive. In what way? In just so physically, uh technically, everything they don't miss chances, and somehow we managed to stay up on the last day of the season. It was it was the COVID season, and I remember at COVID come we were sitting second bottom, I think it was us and Barnsley, and we're thinking there was talk, oh they're gonna cancel league. We're thinking, touch over the moon, over the moon, and then there was talk about oh no, we'll just keep it the same now. Bottom three, go down. No, no, no, can't do that, can't do that, and then they decided they'd done that with League One and Two, but we went back for the championship to finish it off, and they brought Nate back for the last nine games, I think it was we had to play, and somehow we ended up staying up. I think we lost one at the last nine games, it was incredible, and to stay up, that was that was brilliant, and uh, and then we just went on from there, really. Nate came in after that. We stabilised, I think we finished mid-table, uh, and then the following season we got in the playoffs the first time. I was gutted because uh that was probably the longest stint I played in the championship at that time, and I think it was about three or four games before the end of the season. Uh I'd done my ACL on my knee, and I was gutted because you know what it's like. You're probably I'm probably probably playing my best football. I was loving it, playing well. We were heading for the playoffs, doing really well. And so you're thinking, oh, everything's happy days, and then Carliff away, and like coming out for a low cross, caught it, and then my old, my own, my own player went into retirement, Tom Lockett. I remember watching that. It was horrible. Seeing the highlight of it, it was horrible. It was, and it was weird because at the time the pain hit, and I thought I'd done my knee, my shin, my ankle. I thought I'd done everything, and then my shining me ankle come back to me, and my knee just felt funny. So I thought, and it was just before half-time, so I thought, right, let's just get to half-time and then we'll see how it goes. So I ended up getting up, and the the ref dropped dropped the ball to me, and I think I don't need this right now. So I've got to kick it. I've kicked it and sat straight back down because I my knee just went all funny, and I knew I'd done something serious. Couldn't know how serious it was, and yeah, went for the scan and then straight ACL. Uh I remember the physics actually saying I've got away with it lightly because the way locks went into me, it could have been a lot lot worse. It was just straight ACL, and I think I broke a little bone in my knee, which was nothing really. So I got away with one, I did. And I was out for nine months in total, I think it was about nine months, but from operation it was about seven months, I think it was. I come back really quick. Uh, because I had to as well. That was a that was a mental one. I'd done four days training, no, about three days full training, and then I'm sitting on the bench again because uh we had Jack Wharton, Jack Wharton got injured, so I had to go sit on the bench. And I think, oh, if I come on here, I have not got a clue what to do. But it was probably the best thing that happened to me, you just get slung in. And it won't, I didn't play a game for another six weeks before I was waiting for it just to heal, get to the nine months to heal properly, and then play again. But I was still sitting on the bench, so it it was mental, really.
SPEAKER_01:That must have been hard though, right? Being being involved and being part of that successful run in the team, and then just being pulled away from it because of injury, that must have been tough.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it was tough, especially when we were seeing the playoffs, and you're thinking, right, this is this would have been my chance at one, get to a playoff final at Wembley, maybe, or or even get promoted. So I was I was gutted, I was, I'm not gonna lie, I was absolutely gutted, and it was disappointing because we lost it at the first, we lost Hudders all in the playoffs as well. So you're thinking, right, we might not ever get this again. So but then the second scene started, and we managed to get there again. But I was out of it till I think February time, the following February, and people were asking this all the time at how do you deal with it and everything. And I say to him, I'm not gonna lie, apart from the first two weeks, I loved it, if I'm honest with you. I loved taking a step back from it, taking a step back from football, and the club were brilliant with me. So I was up at the end of the season, my contract, and I remember being on the bus coming back from Cardiff, and I got a message from my agent saying, Gary Sweet had been on the phone already, said tell him not to worry, we'll sort his contract out, tell him not to worry, it would all be done. So that took a lot of worry away from me. Because I remember coming off at Cardiff thinking, I'm in big trouble here, because there was only three or four games left of the season, and then my contract was up. Something I could be at for a long time without a club, without a contract, what am I gonna do? But the club took that completely away from me, not have to worry at all. All the only thing I had to worry about was getting my knee right, and I said, I I I really enjoyed it if I'm honest. I went away in August. We don't go away in August. I got to go away with me uh my wife and my kids in August, which is unheard of. So uh, in that sense, I I quite I quite enjoyed it having to break from it, all if I'm honest with you.
SPEAKER_02:It's a mad one because I deal with a lot of players who have injuries and they really struggle mentally, like really, really struggle really badly, and they don't realise how badly they struggle until they're in it. So they think, oh, I'll be fine, and then they lose that certainty, and then they don't feel significant, and then it's the unknown. They say you could have a contract coming up and they don't feel valued, and then the identity goes. So I've seen a lot of players struggle mentally, and it's really I can I completely understand why as well.
SPEAKER_00:Completely get it. I was just very fortunate that Luton took that worry away from me, first of all. And in a way, there was another boy there I spoke about in a moment, Glenn Ray. He had done his ACL as well uh a few weeks before. So I had him to do my rehab with, so we bounced off each other. If he if I was having a bad day, he'd pick me up. If he was having a bad day, I'd pick him up. And it really worked well for both of us. So in that sense, it was I I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the rehab, I enjoyed having something to get back for as well. And then when I did get back, it made me appreciate even more for being out for so long to remembering how much I love the game.
SPEAKER_01:Suppose you don't realise how much you miss something until someone takes it away. Yeah, yeah. It's the same thing with with like nerves and anxiety before games. A lot of goalkeepers struggle with nerves and anxiety, they get nervous, they build stories in their heads. But when you're injured, the only thing you ever want to do is play. When you're on the bench, the only thing you complain about is playing. So when you have the opportunity, why not be present and why not enjoy it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And like when you're injured, you're not a part of it, really, are you? You get out sight, at mind as well. So it's in that sense, it's it's horrible because you see the boys, they're playing week in, week out, and they were winning. We had such a good team, they were winning every single week. You're thinking, I ain't gonna get back in here. And I had a little bit of luck because they brought Jack Borton in in uh January, and then after a couple of weeks, he I think he's pulled his groin or something, and we had no one else. So Ethan was playing, Jack was on the bench, and then we had no one else. And I remember the gaffer comes to me and goes, You alright to go on the bench? I just went, Yeah, no problem. And then I remember sitting on the bench thinking, if I've got to come on here, I could be in a bit of a pickle.
SPEAKER_01:But did you did you say yes to that just out of autopilot because that's what players do, or did you say yes because you genuinely felt you were ready?
SPEAKER_00:Bit of both. I wasn't ready because I'd only done three days full training, but I'd like to think I was a little bit older, my experience would get me through it. And I thought, what an opportunity I've been at for however long to go straight back and get involved. So if I said no and they put, I don't know, a young boy on the bench, then when Jack's fit, Jack would have just gone straight back on the bench. And I thought, this is my chance, I've got to try and be involved. And where we were winning, we were in the playoffs. We I think we were third at the time, so we were pushing all automatics as well. There was a chance we could have gone up straight away. So I wanted to be a part of that. So I thought I've got to do everything in my power to be a part of it. And thankfully, I managed to stay on the bench, and uh I got to play the last game of the season of the regular season, which was a massive bonus for me. So I I had that season written off. I thought I weren't gonna play a game, weren't gonna be involved or anything in that whole season. So to be one back involved, which was brilliant, and then to play the last game of the season against Hull, uh it was a don't get me wrong, it was a nothing game. They had nothing to play for, we had nothing, we were in the playoffs already. But for me, it was fantastic. I kept a clean sheet, loved every single minute of it as well. I did. How did you feel before that game? I was nervous. Well yeah. Well I was nervous, I'm not gonna lie. Uh I was nervous, I was thinking, I just want to play well. That's all I wanted to do. Just play well, show people what I'm about. And it was tough as well. Because when I got injured, Nathan Jones was the manager. And when I come back, Rob Edwards was the manager. So Rob's never seen me play. So Rob don't know what I really what I'm about, if I'm honest. So I was desperate to show him that I can do the job still as well. Thankfully, we kept a clean sheet, and then we went in the playoffs and won the playoffs, and that was incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Imagine coming back from an ACL, not having like we talk about evidence, right? It's evidence of like past success that you can go and do something to give you confidence. You went into a game, having not played the game for probably about a year at that point, just coming up.
SPEAKER_00:Just done that, yeah. Just done there, probably. It would have. And I've done I've done three days training. Three days full training. I'd done little bits of handling, but three days full training sessions. So I must have had my first training session on like the Tuesday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. Jack pulled his groin on, I think the Friday, and then I was on the bench on the Saturday.
SPEAKER_01:Bloody hell.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, it was uh it was mental. Because I like I said, I had that season written off completely. I thought if I get back towards the end of the season, fantastic. But I never thought I'd be back involved, let alone even play a game that season. So I was really lucky. Like my rehab went really well. Had great help from all the physios and everything I did.
SPEAKER_01:In a way, though, the expectation of you saying that you're not going to play for the rest of the season probably helped you. Yeah, because you set the bar really low, didn't you? Because then when you got the chance to play, you must have felt like you're on top of the world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I remember the gaffer coming to me at the time said, after game, you enjoy that. I loved every single second of it. Even though I'd never. Because the last 10 minutes, all you think is, please do not score there. Please do not score there. Even though it was a dead rubber game, like nothing was on it. I was thinking, I just would keep clean sheet, keep clean sheet. And uh thankfully, the as soon as that final whistle goes, the you can just even though I I probably didn't have nothing to do in the game, I was drained. But that's just goalkeeping anyway. You might not have nothing to do, and you just come at the end of the game, at the end of the day, you are drained, mentally drained. You are.
SPEAKER_02:So, how was it getting promoted and then going into the Premier League?
SPEAKER_00:The playoff final was one of the most stressful things I've ever been a part of. One, because I'm sitting there no control of it at all. And you're thinking at half time, we're 45 minutes away from the Prem. Happy days, we were flying, we should have been two or three up. We had a goal disallowed, and we was one-nil up. And then 15 minutes into the second half, that completely changed. They brought on brought on Matty Godon, they scored, and they was all over us. And you're thinking, we're not gonna win here, we're not gonna do this. But then as soon as they scored, they sat back, and then it was really weird, and then it went to the when went to penalties and we done so much homework for the penalties, it was ridiculous. We were practicing every day. We made sure the psychology of it, people some people might think it's a load of rubbish, but we worked so hard and we made sure we were closest to the dugout. We made sure uh the boys had a certain routine and everything, they'd creep forward uh from every penalty. It was just like little things like that, and uh it worked. We ended up winning on penalties, and uh I can see it now when the ball so unfortunately someone's got a miss. But when he missed and it goes over, you just run and it was absolutely incredible. It was uh it was relief as well, uh, because you're thinking you might not we might not get this chance ever again. So to win, uh and we had such a good group as well.
SPEAKER_04:The ball unbelievable people on the pitch and off the pitch. So it was just one it was the final
SPEAKER_00:thing we had to do really from uh when we was in league two we had a lot of boys that went from league two uh to the playoffs to the f to the prem as well so for that group it was in incredible it was how did you find the Premier League season it was uh it was great but it and if we could have stayed up it would have been fantastic we knew we was up against it straight away with some of the the money that was getting spent and Luton was never gonna go spend massive amounts of money so to be the best of the three that come up I think that's a great accomplishment in itself um it's just a different level there's not one bad player in the Prem. You know you hear fans saying oh he's rubbish he's this he's that there is not one bad player in the Prem. It's it's ridiculous. Everyone is an athlete everyone is strong everyone is quick and it was it was it's just conf we thought the level from the jump from League 1 to the championship was big but from the championship to the Premier incredible. And you see the following season the three teams that went up come straight back down again. It looks like it could be different this year. Sunderland have started really well but the the gap between the championship and the premiership is massive absolutely massive and we give it a right good go we did it I think we took it down to like the second last game but unfortunately it weren't enough we knew it was going to be tough we did uh we had moments where we thought if we could have held on there like Bournemouth away with a 3-0 up at half time if we hold on to that win that and you're thinking we got a good chance here and then you're looking at some games you think we had I remember thinking we got Brentford at home a few games towards end you think got a chance here Brentford turned up pop pop pop with our top corner goal and it was their quality was incredible so there was moments where we could have done better and could have got a few more points but if we would have stayed up it would have been unbelievable a a miracle really if I'm honest. How did you find being on the bench and being some goalkeeper because we we were talking about this and we might do an episode on this about being how do you find being on the bench and how how do you deal with that do you do you mind it do you like it and what advice would you no one likes being on the bench no one likes someone who's but on the bench and at times I was third choice so we had Thomas uh Kaminsky and Tim Krull and myself so at times I was third choice as well I oh well I was third choice so I'd get on the bench and there'd be two goalkeepers on the bench so I'm sitting there thinking I'm not coming on either if Thomas goes down um again like I was saying earlier I go back to when I was at Hariborough I think back to when I was at Harobor I think if you would have said you're doing this when you was at Hariborough I said never in a million years so in that sense I just crack on I I always thought keep my head down work hard and see where it takes me and it is what it is it's part and parcel football it is uh we're very fortunate we had a great group we had a really good group we did Thomas and Tim Tim called probably one of the best people I've ever met in football is an absolute legend of a man and Thomas was was our player of the season he was fantastic he had an unbelievable season he did and um we had a a great group goalkeeping group like even uh pilks our goalkeeping coach he managed us brilliantly he did so pilks had three senior goalkeepers really and he he just managed us he he didn't try and uh do anything silly anything uh extra ordinary or anything like that he just managed us every single day and where Thomas was playing so well no one can say you can't say nothing Thomas was our best player so Tim Tim realised that as well and we had such a great group we go in every single day and have a great time we did we I was I must admit ever since I've been at Luton we've always had a good group as well like goalkeeping union we've always had a great group we've had some goalkeepers come in always been fortunate in that sense I have what's been one thing that you learnt from Tim because obviously Tim's played he's I think he's playing the he's playing the World Cup hasn't he's played in the World Cup penalty shootout he's obviously had some unbelievable moments was there anything that you kind of took away from working with him day to day that's influenced you yeah I liked how Tim not care is the wrong word but he's warm-up his goalkeeping warm up he don't have a set routine he just does how he feels what he feels at time if he wants to go do 10 volleys ten half volleys a few dippers that's what he's gonna do one week it'd be that next week it'd be something else and I love how again it's not that he don't care it's just like he's unfazed by anything he knows what he needs to get himself going he knows what he's got to do to to get himself ready for a game and I I'd watched him I think that's unbelievable how he'd do that how he'd one week he'd have one warm-up and the next we'd have another warm-up and whatever done he'd be ready to go I found that incredible I did why because me I have my own routine and I think if I don't do my routine right I'm not ready and then I'd look at Tim and Tim wouldn't even know until he's doing it what he wants to do. And I just found that mental but I love the way he'd go into games and again not caring is the wrong word it's just like not worried about anything he wouldn't have a care in the world he knows he's been doing it for the last 25 years he knows what he's got to do. So I loved Harry Wizzle like that.
SPEAKER_01:See I love I love how you say that because earlier on when we were speaking about that run in the team where you were going through a bit of bad form and an injury and obviously you just had your your your kids you said the more that you tried the harder you felt things were then with Tim it's almost like the more relaxed he was the better he performed yeah did that kind of go full circle for you then in that moment exactly that it was and I remember speaking to Pilks uh pilks would get anxiety thinking I don't know what he wants for his warm up so pilks is worrying thinking what what does he need and he's thinking he's waiting for Tim to tell him but Tim would just crack on not a care in the world and then he'd go and play finish the game and that's it.
SPEAKER_00:And I'd look at that and I'd admire him for it because I'm thinking I wish I could be like that as well.
SPEAKER_02:And you notice it's a common theme. Yeah just thinking it's a common theme so when Nathan Bishop was here he talked about David De Gea he's like couldn't care less in the world so he's people he looked at he's like just turn up made a mistake meh and then Tom Heaton we've talked about a few times acceptance mentality is like I'm gonna make mistake I'm gonna mess up and I I I found it's a common theme of people who elite performers it's a weird one where they go I don't know why they just it's an elite mentality it isn't it you think it isn't it's a weird one because you go well they don't they don't care. Yeah it's not elite mentality it is it's the opposite of not to it's really hard not to yeah it's not not to care it's not just free yeah and to go do you know what I'm just gonna accept whatever happens to me it's the unknown I'm gonna go into it I'm gonna accept it for how it is it's like they know that they've trained themselves the last 20 years to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Trust. Yeah they trust themselves like and they will make the odd mistake once in the blue moon and they're so good at just gone gone. It's not like again it's not like they don't care it's just like to have that mentality just to forget about it straight away is is tough because I've been there you've making you made a mistake and you're thinking 10 minutes are gone you're still thinking about it but the then ones gone oh well done can't do nothing about it now gotta make the next save do we put do we put too much importance on warm-ups?
SPEAKER_01:Like I've been that I've yeah I always ask because like you have a bad warm-up and you I don't know if you've been in this situation before but you have a bad warm up and you go oh the game's gonna be shit now yeah that's a belief system it's a belief system isn't it like I've had bad warm ups end up having good games I've had good warmups and then uh and shockers it's it's it's just part and parcel.
SPEAKER_00:You just try and I think the whole point of warm-up is just trying to get yourself in a good good mindset good frame of mind a good a feel good just feel good get a good feel of the ball that's what I think warm up's there for like I watch some goalkeepers and they're doing like a full-on session before a game and I think to myself I couldn't do that I I don't I don't like to be sweating before games so I want to go out do my routine feel good get a good feel of the ball and then I'm ready to go I don't want to be up down up down top corners and thinking I'm knackered now or 50 000 kicks before a game then my groin's hanging off like we had a goal kit a few years ago uh Sluger in the warm-up he'd do so many kicks and I'm thinking if that's me my groin is falling off and I think to myself how are you doing that I said to him he goes no I'll just do it I just do it I feel comfortable doing that I think I couldn't but you again everyone's different you find what suits you some people want to be up down up down having the session before games I couldn't do it because then I'll be knacked by the time the game started no I I agree with you I've this is going to be controversial but I always say that the majority of a warm-up is actually feeling insecurity in yourself like we've all been there we can all take well I don't know about me but we can all take a goal kick I can't sometimes I can't we can all take a goal kick we're now to take a cross we're now to do a pickup or a dipper but I think we do it in a warm-up to get used to the conditions to get used to the environment and to tick that box in our heads conditions is a massive thing by the way people don't realise conditions is tough for a goalkeeper like I think the worst thing for a goalkeeper is playing in wind. I hate wind yeah I agree wind oh playing rain snow cold sun wind is the worst thing for a goalkeeper I think because when you've got them balls coming over the top and you think oh do I come here wind's blowing a gal that's tough I think and uh I think a lot of goalkeepers think the same as well you you start building those stories don't you in kickoff like the big one for me was taking goal kicks and having this fear of not reaching the halfway line it's a myth though in it yeah it's a myth like getting beat at your near post is a myth it is like the blowing 50 mile an hour wind straight in your face to get over the halfway line is tough so you just gotta try and adjust it and try and keep it low as possible but it's it's hard. People don't realise to kick it over the halfway line in 50 mile an hour wind is really hard. It's like the stories you tell yourself I've got to get over the halfway line is it actually do you have to why for what reason it's like when you take on kick so you mean take off kick everyone puts the ball on the line yeah you don't have to put on the line you can bring it back a little bit on a better bit of grass if you want to see what that much ain't gonna make a massive difference really is it but in your head you tell yourself that that bit I'm gonna get in for 10 yards stuff like that. It's kicking it and making a little mound still do that but again it's the myth of of goalkeeping really innit yeah you you're so right you're so right but getting like I said getting beat at your near post it's a myth it's a myth you could be where you are now you smash it and it beats me there.
SPEAKER_02:How am I supposed to react when you've smashed it as I can there but being beaten at the end of managers who say that I got and pundits and pundits yeah I got kicked out of Everton I didn't play for Everton play for I got kicked out of Enfield town for that did you know that what for going against a manager for the near posting yeah so I was playing lined up a wall so on this side of the wall and it's on the near post it's it's hit the wall come back and it's hit it first time it's gone the post and then I've come in and he's gone it's gone in near post it's your fault I was like I was I was the other side of the goal I've lined up a wall you should save it mate yeah but the gym's coming there the gym didn't come and I got kicked out of the top of that line only goalkeepers know that only goalkeepers will understand that because there's a lot of myths I remember that that was we went for each other and uh you're not let that one go to have you still see the little bit we still speak it's all good it's hindsight isn't it because you it it fuss frustrates you when someone says a manager has no idea about goalkeeping going it's gone in near post you're like the hell like if you've just been listening to that you've heard everyone else say because it's gone in the near post like you should save it I think goalkeepers know as well I think when a goal goes in you know within 10 15 seconds should have done better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah really don't you if he puts one in the top bin fair play can't do nothing about that or if one goes in you think I might have been a little bit too far over there or I should have saved that I should have been stronger there.
SPEAKER_02:You know within 10-15 seconds I agree I think you always do self-accountability though isn't it like you you know like especially at your level when you've got that level of expertise or you've been doing it for so long you know instantly you don't need someone to tell you that you've you fucked up yeah has there been a moment though where you've messed up in a game and people have started going after you and all those voices from like people around the team or maybe the fans behind the goal yeah yeah I remember we lost to Brentford one year first year in the champ I think it was seven nil seven or eight nil it was a shocker they scored within the first two or three minutes long ball over the top uh and Brem and Bremo took it around me and scored and I think we got caught in between Potse went I can't was it Potse or someone I can't remember it was uh went to leave it for me or something and I remember the crowd behind me singing it's all your fault it's all I'm saddling is it my fault really and for about 10 minutes that's all I thought about lost 7-8-0 mental it was awful day terrible game but Brentford were a joke but we ended up going to win the net the following week which was we come back from it really but there have been plenty of times I remember putting the ball down one time I thought the ref blew for an offside put the ball down fellas gone and took the goal and scored ref's holding his hand up like that so I'm thinking he's offside he ain't he ain't blown up I thought I heard the whistle but the ref and the ref got his hand up because I've seen the Lilo uh do that so I've seen the ref go like that I thought I've heard the whistle so I've put the ball down thinking right right let's play let's play trying to be quick he's come took the pool scored I'm thinking you blew you blew the whistle no no I said you've got your hand in the air no no no he's given the goal Nathan Jones was our manager at the time oh no yeah oh no he weren't happy as you can imagine he was not happy about that and uh yeah again learn from it happens touch with him they've done it again since but yeah you do some things like that just happened and I still blame the referee for that one though because he had his arm in the air to indicate it was a an offside or a free kick or whatever it was so yeah but as you can imagine Nathan Jones was not best pleased with me that day what did he say I just remember shouting what are you doing don't ever do that again uh I can't remember else but there's another time might have been a C word that you're probably not that's it might have been don't use that you don't use that I remember another time about him sorry we played Coventry away it was the coldest day you could ever imagine it was freezing and we were winning 2-0 had a really good game played played really well and then I give a penalty away in the last minute last kit of the game win the game well they take it off ref blows 2-1 nace come running over to me and I can't remember what he's saying because I've just blanked him out and he but he's he's shouting at me shouting at me what are you doing blah blah blah we've won the game 2-1 it was a great win but he's just so desperate to win and desperate to do well he wants you to do well and it's not in there's no like bad blood or anything like it's not um coming for me for personal reason or anything like that he's just so into the game and thinking everything like that and I remember uh Andrew Shiny came over said Gaffa you've been brilliant for us today leave him leave it leave it and then we got into the change room and he went on again about I think he did saying you're brilliant today but didn't you give away the penalty blah blah and we had our Christmas do that night and I that night I ended up getting a message from him saying listen I apologise for it I just wanted you to get clean sheet blah blah and everything and it just showed you what what he he just wants to win so badly and he was brilliant by the way Nave incredible as a manager and everything he was just he will cover it easy he don't like goalkeepers he's a keeper basher I don't think many managers do to be fair no I can't feel managers yeah I don't think they like keepers most of them haven't played in goals they probably can't relate to it right it's harder they think it's easy a lot of people a lot of people just easiest position on the pitch in fact it are it's probably the hardest you've got all the there's pressure a striker can go miss from two yards but then go score happy days forget about it keeper makes a mistake 99 times out of 100 it's a goal so we're the ones that we're the silly ones really silly ones so you said about the the crowd shouting how have you dealt in the past with judgment and criticism when it's come your way because when we speak to goalkeepers they hate the criticism they hate the judgment although it's the price you pay entry right the price you pay is criticism and judgment and the higher you go the higher the price you pay yeah that's just a part of the journey so how have you dealt with that in the past I think you know as well like if you're playing well you know you're playing well if you're playing bad I think you know you're playing bad as well you just hope they stick with you give you a chance to get through your sticky patch and everything again I know I've said it a couple times I'll go back to Haribor.
SPEAKER_00:So I'll I every time everything's going bad for me or not going well I always go back to my Hariborra days thinking what was at Haribor I was playing in the Ryman Premier if you tell me I'm doing what I'm doing now never believed during a million years. So that's how I cope with things and I've said it a couple times already but I always go back to my time there and that that's all I do. Even even now I'm thirty thirty four years of age and I was playing Harry Bower twenty two. I always go back to that even when things are not going great now.
SPEAKER_02:It's changing your expectation really to appreciation isn't it so Appreciate and if you get criticized, judged, make mistakes, you're like, Well, I've been at non-league and now I'm here.
SPEAKER_00:And it is part and parcel being a goalkeeper. You're gonna make mistakes. There is gonna time there is gonna be a time where you will get dropped for something. It is part and parcel of football. It's the it's the horrible side of football. There's a when it's going well and you're winning, you're playing well, you're making great saves, you're keeping clean sheets. That's fantastic. It's easy then. That's easy. It's when it's not going well, when you've got to deal with the mistakes and the setbacks and people calling you every single name you can imagine. That's when it's hard. And that's where you've got to you need a good goalkeeping coach in that sense to speak to someone to help you when you are down and and when you need a kick up the backside as well.
SPEAKER_01:So you you mentioned about being able to deal with those rough moments in your career and going through those runs of bad form. And we we know having our crackpock team do some research on you that you're obviously a big advocate of of men's mental health and talking about you know men's related issues. What's what sparked that to become such a passion project that that you've now got?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not gonna lie, um, so Stu uh Meader Man over Luton, uh, he gave us a list of what we'd like to do, and I end up ticking that one. And he asked me, There's a few things you want to go uh be an advocate for and everything. I said, Yeah, brilliant. And then you go to these uh events and listen to a few people talk, and some of the stories you hear are awful. And by me going and explaining my stories and everything, it somehow helps people. So I I enjoyed doing stuff like that, I did. So if I could people like hearing my story from where I've been, where where I was, where I went to, and what I've been through, if that helps, I I'll talk about it all day long. If I'm honest with you.
SPEAKER_01:Was that a career point of view or was that a well-being or mental health point?
SPEAKER_00:Well being well-being. So like I I I never thought anything about it, if I'm honest with you. And you know what like mental health in football, don't really talk about it. It's a lot better now, but um I remember just through giving us the sheet of paper things you'd like to talk about, and I remember just ticking mental health, and it went from there, really.
SPEAKER_01:Was there was there because I I think that people unconsciously get into things because they've maybe gone through something in their own lives. So I've had I've had times where I've been quite low, and we we always talk about it, we always speak on the phone every day, don't we, about being in the valley of despair. Has there been a time in your career where you've been in that valley of despair?
SPEAKER_00:Uh probably the first time at Wimbledon, I really there was a time where nobody spoke about this, to be fair. My wife, when we had our first child, she struggled with postnatal depression a little bit as well. So I see her go through it and she found it really tough. So I'd see her, and when you were talking earlier about how when you're and you had your first one and then your mother passed away, my wife, we had our first child, and then two weeks later her mum passed away as well. So she, as you can imagine, was really tough with that as well. That's what I can't even imagine.
SPEAKER_02:Can't even imagine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So so that was really hard for her. So I see her mental health deteriorate a little bit as well. So I see it from that side. I did.
SPEAKER_01:Did you feel as like the man in that relationship that you felt like you had to step up in that moment and yeah, you know, what was hard for me was I was still in the mindset of football, football, football.
SPEAKER_00:So I was when I look back at it now, stupid, obsolete, because I was thinking football, football, football, that's all that matters.
SPEAKER_04:I I not that I we just had a baby and my wife's mum passed away. I needed I should have been more available for her, really.
SPEAKER_00:But I wasn't. Because I was again, I was 24 at the time, and my whole life from growing up was football, football, football. I was like that. I'd no nothing else, football, football, football. So when I look back at it now, I think, and I've learned this as I've had kids and got older, there's more to life than football, if I'm honest with you. And I've I've I've never spoken about that or never said it to anyone.
SPEAKER_02:But you see that, don't you? You see people go, well, football's the most important thing, and football's this and that. Like, for example, you have that clip of Roy Keane going, Well, she's had the baby, not you. Yeah, and people take that and they go, they don't realise, for example, your partner then going through a really hard time, and then you've got that pressure of football when people going, you need to get back, you need to play, and then you've you've got the unknown. I see this with players as well. Might have a contract coming up, got a little one to provide for, got a little one to provide for. What if I don't play? What if I don't get a new contract? As I say, that football's a lot of unknowns.
SPEAKER_00:Again, like you said, so when I got let go from Wimbledon, my little one would have been one at the time. So I've just got released from Wimbledon, and I'm thinking to myself, I ain't got a job. The phone's not ringing. So I'm thinking, what am I gonna do? Thankfully, end up going looting and it's taking care of itself. But sorry, there is that worry of what if I don't get nothing? How am I gonna look after this this baby? I've got a newborn, I've got a missus to provide for, I've got a baby to provide for, I've got to look after them. And that is that's a stressful, that's them stresses are are really tough. Really, really tough, they are.
SPEAKER_02:There's people, it's things people don't really talk about, especially in football with you have to be an alpha kind of a an alpha male in the dressing room. A lot of them you don't have to, but we put masks on it, we laugh about it, we don't talk about it. And I've seen, for example, players that I know who have finished their football career and they've been told, and and this is the the conflict, so their partner wants them to be more present, they're having babies. The manager's tell them you've got to play. Had one player who not long had a his partner had a baby, he's got injured, and it was you need to get an operation, you have to get an operation. And then she's like, Well, you need to spend time at home, and then the football club's going, Well, you need to get an operation, and then he's going, Well, my contract's coming to the end, so he's in this conflict of do I help? Do I get what about my football? And it's all this internal conflict, and eventually as operation can't really help with a baby, and then years down the line, as you get down the line, she's gone. I still hold all this resentment towards you from your football career where right there. Yeah, you wasn't there, and then ended up breaking up from this resentment, all through, and people don't see that side of of football because everyone's like football, football, football, football, football. Where, as you said, there's so much going on, and it's only in hindsight that we go, Oh, I didn't know it. You don't know any better, do you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I can completely see where that comes from as well. I'm very fortunate. My miss has been with her a long time. She was with she was coming to Haroborough, watching me at Haroborough play. So she's seen the stuff I've been through. She was there when I started at Arsenal and then went to Harrowborough and then worked my way up. So she's seen everything. So I'm very lucky in that sense. But like you were just saying, you can see how to get the pressures from both sides, it's it's tough. It is real, really, really tough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't think people speak about I think it's really good what you're doing about mental health in football because people put this stigma on mental health, but you have our physical health, you get injured, ACL, that's your physical health. You can see that. Yeah, you can see that. Your mental health is your thinking. And I always like to say, I like to say this to anyone, and the more you see it and the more you speak about it, everyone says, I'm like, we're all fucked up in some way, some of us just willing to admit it. There's we're all going through problems, we all struggle, we're all anxious, we're worried about judgment. But when you when you're in football, people don't see that side because people go to me.
SPEAKER_00:You walk through that door and then it's just a mask on, and you'll just blag yourself through it, get through it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, people say, Why do you help footballers? What they got to worry about, they're getting money, and I'm like, Well, you're only seeing one side. I just saw your face, then you're like, you're complete, you're like I disagreed with that, and I 100% get it. It's like well, you work with footballers, what they got to worry about, they get loads of money. I'm like, yeah, you might see the Premier League, but you don't see that underneath where you're fighting for a contract.
SPEAKER_00:Next thing you know, you're people in I don't know, League One, League Two, Conference, they're playing for their mortgages.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They get they don't, they're not at a club, they can't pay their mortgage. They've got families, they've got kids to provide for. It's people will see like the Premier League players, the top earners, and they're getting the big money, right? It's like they're at the biggest clubs in the world. But it's not like that for every single person in football. Wish it was.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's really hard, really hard. So I had this conversation, literally had this conversation at the weekend with someone. I was at a kid's birthday party, and I was having this conversation about football. And some people, when they realise you're in football, they ask questions and they don't understand what it's like in football. And let me give a different perspective. If you work in an office, you work in an office, right? You have a bad day, you go home and forget about it. You don't have your manager calling you every name under the sun, screaming at you, and then you go on your social media, and people sometimes tell you to go, I've seen it, kill yourself, racist comments. You go down the pub, you forget about it, you go on, you have the next day. Well, if you go down the pub, guess what? Everyone's gonna tell you you've you've ruined their weekend that you fucked it up and you should have done this better, and probably could have done this better, and that there's no privacy. If anything happened to you in that office, you'd go straight to HR. There's no there's no HR. There is no HR, obviously.
SPEAKER_00:It's a different world. It's a different world. It's a different, it's a different, it's a job. It's a different job compared to any other job in the world, I think. The no one unless you're in it, no one understands what it's about, I think.
SPEAKER_02:I think football is a lonely place sometimes. Of course. I was just speaking to this.
SPEAKER_00:When it's going well, it's the best job in the world. But when it's going bad, it's awful. Awful, awful. It's a cutthroat business. It's a business at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_04:And it's uh it's it's a it's a tough job.
SPEAKER_00:Like I I have three girls and none of them play football. I've got a nephew who's a goalkeeper at the Arsenal, and I'm glad I don't have to go through it with mine, like my brother's going through with with his son at the minute, if I'm honest with you. I'm glad I don't have to go through it.
SPEAKER_02:Why is that?
SPEAKER_00:Because I wouldn't I wouldn't want to have a son to go through the rejection, the heartbreak of not getting a contract, not being at the club you want to be out of. Um say you're at a club for your whole up to 16, and then they turn around and want they say, Oh, we don't want you no more. It's heartbreaking. That it happened to me when I was at up. I actually got released when I was at 16. And again, they just let me train, hopefully find something, nothing came up, and then end up giving me a scholarship. But when they told me I weren't gonna get a scholarship, I went home and cried. I was devastated, I was, and I wouldn't want to have a son to go through that. But I look at my brother, he's taking his son, training four times a week, playing games as well. It's pretty much a full-time job for these kids. It's it's hard work. And I look at him and I think to myself, and I speak to my other friends as well, they've got uh boys that they're taking them football clubs, uh all different clubs as well, up and round the country. And I think to myself, I'm quite glad I don't have to do that. Again, though it shows you the sacrifice my mum and dad had to make for me to drive me all around the country when I was a kid as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 100%. My nephew was up in Liverpool playing for Luton, under Nines last weekend Luton under Nines in Liverpool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they're babies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It is scary, it's it's frightening. And you think the pressure that they're under and the parents as well, we could that's another episode. The pressure that the parents put on, and uh the the poor kids have the car journey home. Oh still trauma. Car journey of the should be fun, it's fine, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Go and play for it all, have fun. It's a bad.
SPEAKER_02:Have a go at my brother. I'm watching my brother and I'm like, it's like he should do better there. He needs to be running more. I'm like, hold on a minute. It's he's playing that he's he's played 80 minutes against Liverpool in Liverpool, like travelling.
SPEAKER_00:Left at half 60.
SPEAKER_02:There's no subs, there's no subs, and he's not running that much. Like, you'd be knacker playing fiver for 20 minutes, like you, but you're expecting him to like put a shift in. It's like it's it's mad. I find it a madness, an absolute madness. So talk about coming to full circle. Yeah, you've now got Jack Wiltshire, yeah, and gaffer. How weird is that one is it?
SPEAKER_01:Or is it Jack? Is it is it Jack? Is it gaffer?
SPEAKER_00:It's Jack to me, for you. Yeah. How is that? Weird, yeah. It's alright now, but when uh when you see see him getting linked with a job, you're thinking, really? Because he'd he he was been at Norwich for a while and uh took the last couple rounds. I know he's he was trying to get back in, and it's uh so when McGaff got the sack, you see the odds come out and everything, and you see uh Willsh is odds on favour at the time. Wow. And I don't actually have his number at the time, so but his little boy and my brother's little boy, they was in the same team. So I got me got his number off my brother, so I've messaged him saying, uh, what's this I'm hearing about? Uh no, I said, are the true uh are the rumours true? And uh he rang me back, said he's had the interview done and everything, and he just said, wait and see what happens. And he uh rang me the following day and said that he's gone in for another interview to meet the board and everything. Didn't hear anything of him. And then he rang me on a Sunday night, and by this time on Twitter, everything, the odds of it's basically announced, even though it's not been announced, it's basically been confirmed. So he's rang me, I went, uh, I've answered, I went, is that McGaffer? And he's gone, cool, that's weird, isn't it? And uh ended up just having a chat with him just about about the club, telling him all the good things about the club, and that he he's gonna love it. And he's come in, he's and I think he's done really well so far. I think he's come across really well. We've spoken to the boys really well. Um his coaching sessions have been really good, and the results have shown it. His first game we lost 2-0 to Mansfield. I'm sure he would have learnt a lot from that, thinking, cool, this ain't gonna be easy. And then since then we're unbeaten in five, even though two of them were cup games. So he's got a little bit, we've got a little bit of momentum there. So I'll just touch wood, hope and pray we can get some more results on the board and uh push up the league. Uh we got a massive win last week, Stockpool. Uh they were they're top of the league at the time, so we've gone there and won. So that was a big, big win for us. Um I just hope it's a great opportunity for one Luton and two, him. It's a great club to be a part of. I'm sure managers would have been queuing up for the job because we're at the minute, we're probably a big team in League One. We should be up there come the end of the season, hopefully Touchwood. And he'll see that thinking it's a great opportunity for him to try and get a promotion on under his belt straight away. Uh, we've got a really good squad, a great group of players as well, like to come in every single day. Boys that want to learn, want to do everything right, but enjoy themselves as well, which is the main thing. So he's brought his staff in, his staff have been fantastic. He brought Chris Powell in, Tim from Arsenal, and um Bridgie as well, and they've been fantastic around the place. Uh, we've actually had a pool tournament, been having a pool tournament, which is uh getting everyone all together, the staff have been in it and everything. Uh so it's been it's been a good, it's been really good so far. Just hope hopefully it continues.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it sounds like things have moved in a nice direction, and it seems like you're really enjoying it as well, which is the most important thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh it's it is weird seeing Jack as me manager calling him gaffer, but uh as I said to you earlier, I still have a joke and a laugh with him and everything. And uh one of the best things what I thought he'd done, he probably don't even realize he'd done it, was playing little little uh small sided games, and there's always that decision who's gonna start with the ball, and he's gone shazy to start, and he said, It's because he's my mate, just making a joke and a laugh out of it, and but he's serious, and I don't um just because I know him doesn't mean he's gonna give me any better treatment or anything like that. It's just football, but I've just known him a long time, and I like I said, I hope and pray it really works out for him because I want him to do well, and you see the detail he goes through in the in the meetings and stuff, and it's it's it's brilliant. And the the boys are loving him at the minute, loving him and his staff.
SPEAKER_02:When are you gonna be knocking on the door saying, Gaffer, why not your team?
SPEAKER_00:Not yet because Josh is doing really well. Not yet. Josh is doing really well. Uh, like I said, we played Stockport last year uh last week, he saved the penalty. Um, I think we've got most clean sheets in the league. Are we up there with the most clean sheets in the league? So Josh is doing something right. So that's but that's part and parcel being a goalkeeper.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, how's your relationship with him? Do you see him as an older goalkeeper? You're trying to bring him forward and uh I get on well with everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'd I'd like to think I get on really well with Josh. I'd like to think he'd say the same thing. Um he knows what he's doing, he's he's been playing for a while now. So if I can help him as in any way, shape, or form, I will do. Um I want to push I want to play as much as anyone, so I'll push push Josh as much as as anything. Uh I'd like to think he knows if he's not up to scratch that, I'm there waiting. So, and that's how it should be. Uh the old saying, the goalkeepers union. Uh, we're both pushing, we both want to play. Um, but he's got the shirt at the minute and he's doing really well, so I've got I've got no complaints.
SPEAKER_02:And what about after football? So getting a little bit older now, not too old. Getting there. Looking great. Very great. But they are no great. Oh, great. That's a bit hard. I'm great. Compared to me, yeah. It's looking great. It is kids fucking hell, yeah. What's the next stage for you looking forward? What do you want to do? Because I suppose you've only known enough nothing but football.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I find I was talking to Chris Powell about the other week, saying, How'd you find it when you've been out of work and everything? He said he's lucky enough he's been in work. And but I remember speaking to Bezo as well. I asked him about, and he went from playing to goalkeeping coaching straight away. So he's never had a break from it. And goalkeeping coaching really interests me. I've just completed my UA for B goalkeeping, uh, done the UA for B outfield as well. But I'm not gonna lie, I've got no interest in outfield at all. You have to do it, don't you? You have to do it. It's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02:Is it the same goal? Like you've got to do the outfield to get outfield goalkeepers. Outfielders hate goalies, goalies hate outfielders.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but the problem is to do the UA for B goalkeeping, you've got to do the UA for B outfield. But the outfield don't have to do the goalkeeping.
SPEAKER_01:And why is that? Exactly discrimination. Yeah, it is a little bit, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Controversial one.
SPEAKER_00:But I I enjoyed that I do. So I'd like to think I see myself doing a bit of that in the future. While I was doing my UA for uh my goalkeeping badges, I took the younger lads, the younger boys over over Luton for a few sessions, and I really enjoyed doing it. And even when the young ones come train with us now, I try and help them up, help them out as much as I can if there are any little pointers I can give them. And I like when they ask questions. I really enjoy when they ask me a question about goalkeeping and everything. Uh I could sit there all day talking about it. So I do see that as a pathway forward for me. Uh hopefully not yet. Hopefully, I've got a few more years left in me because like I said, I still love it. I still I wake up every single day and I love going in. I love the training, I love the match days, I love everything about it. I do. So I hopefully a few more years left in me yet. But in the in the long term, I do see doing a bit of coaching, I must admit.
SPEAKER_02:And to finish off, with your experience, what's the best bit of advice you could give about being a goalkeeper to a young goalie?
SPEAKER_00:Learn to deal with your mistakes because you're gonna make mistakes. No matter like I said earlier, no matter what you do, you are going to make mistakes. So the sooner you learn to deal with that, the better, really, I'd say.
SPEAKER_01:Nice. Thank you so much for your time. We really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_00:I've really enjoyed that. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Cheers.
SPEAKER_02:Cut.
SPEAKER_00:Cut.
SPEAKER_02:I said you're looking great. I thought you were looking great.
SPEAKER_00:I thought you said gray as well.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. Great. I am looking grey. I am looking grey. I was like