Beyond The Box
The mindset. The mistakes. The madness. This is football’s last line of defence - unfiltered. From iconic saves to brutal setbacks, Beyond the Box ® dives into the stories goalkeepers rarely tell, and no one else dares to.
Beyond The Box
Nathan Bishop: What Spilling Coffee Taught Me About Life, Pain & Pressure
Manchester United graduate and AFC Wimbledon goalkeeper Nathan Bishop opens up on the mental battles behind the gloves. Starting as a centre-back to breaking through at Southend and earning a move to United, Bish shares the highs, lows, and lessons of his career so far.
From an honest conversation with Erik ten Hag that shaped a career-defining decision, and the fallout from his infamous collision with Paul Mullin that went viral worldwide, we talk perfectionism, pressure, and imposter syndrome at one of the biggest clubs in the world.
Talking child psychologists and sandbag drills to learning from David de Gea and Tom Heaton, Nathan reveals how he’s shifted from self-doubt to acceptance and why he’s finally enjoying the game again.
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You've got to pay bills for your family. Like, you've got to stay in that goal. You've got to put your life on it. Like, I've got the decision wrong for it. The end of the man, like talking about that when people want it to happen to my family. I didn't think it was right that I I deserve to go and knock on his door. Who are you to go and knock on his door? Like, you're not playing, you're just a Joey. You're a sh you're a training goalie. Shut your mouth, sign a contract, and fuck off. Got a knock on this massive door. He opens it. Not today.
SPEAKER_01:Shut the door.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome back to Beyond the Box. Today we have the legend, which is Mr. Nathan Bishop, who we both know very well, who's a part of our programme. We love him and we're going to get into his story today. So, Bish, welcome, mate. No, thanks. It's really nice to be here. Is it really nice to be here?
SPEAKER_02:No, it's really nice to be here. It is really nice to be. I'm delighted to be here with you too.
SPEAKER_03:So you should be. Like we're going to have a really good time. So we're going to get into your story. We're going to get into mindset. Obviously, you've worked with me, you've worked with KP. So you're going to give some tips and tricks, behind the scenes stuff. You ready to get into it?
SPEAKER_01:I'm ready.
SPEAKER_03:So, ego, first thing I'm going to go straight in with because it's one thing I remember, and I always like to go straight in. We were at the playoff final, was with one of my friends' kids, and I said, What's the most important part of goalkeeping? And I expected something completely different. I was expecting like block saves. And you said, learn how to concede goals, right? Be good at conceding goals.
SPEAKER_02:Get really good at conceding goals.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and that that threw me. And I think it's a really good place to start because that wouldn't be the advice most people give. And I was like, that was unbelievable. So why should you be really good at conceding goals?
SPEAKER_02:I think my first loan in football, I went to Mansfield and I found like being on loan for Man United, I felt like I had to be like top of everything, like literally everything. And I think like I drove myself a little bit insane a bit. Like, you should save everything, you should be the cleanest goalie, you should catch everything. You've got to set the example every single day for everyone. And it was kind of like driving me a bit mad. And one of the coaches said to me one day, like, you're gonna concede goals. Like, just chill. I think like a penalty went in. I was raging about in training. I was genuinely raging. And like he was just like, it's gonna happen. And from that moment on, I was like, I actually should just get really good at conceding goals. I've conceded a lot of goals, I've picked the ball out of my net a lot of times. Like it should be like a standard practice. And I think like once I let go of like just get good at conceding goals, like get get good at being able to like understand you're gonna get beat. It might sometimes be your fault, it might sometimes not. But if it is, go over it, learn from it, and if it's not, get good at it.
SPEAKER_03:And has your mindset shifted quite a lot since obviously you've been doing this stuff and you beforehand, like you said, like you'd be like raging, and it would be the small things, and now like you're pretty chilled, right?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I like one thing I am is I'm intense. Like I want to learn, I want to learn everything in a day. Like the save room wasn't built on a day, like I wanna I want to build it in a day, like I I want to do that, I wanna I wanna complete everything as it as it comes. And if someone's got an idea or something I can improve on, I want to do it right there and then. But I feel like from a big game perspective of learning and from like game to game to game, offering you so many different things. I feel like, yeah, getting chilled about the aspects that the game can bring and conceding goals and the moments that can happen, the effects referees can have on games, like just letting go of those things has helped me massively.
SPEAKER_03:So I want to take you right back to the start. So before the cameras started rolling, I was telling lads about a story that not many people know about you, so better you explain it than me, but you didn't start off as a goalkeeper, did you?
SPEAKER_02:No, not really. Like, I played in goal as a kid, like sometimes went in and out for like my local team, and I I enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it, and then I got to about 13, 14, and I was like, I want to give it a whack at just being a centre back and having a good time. Like, I wanted to play outfield, I wanted to go into school on Monday, be like, I scored, like, come on, like do you know what I mean? But I never really cared about if I played in goal or not, and then I remember sort of getting to the age of maybe 14-15, thinking I need a new challenge, I want to play for a new team. And I went and played for Kingstonian. I also did a bit of like goalkeeping, bit of centre back. I was just having a good time. It was still like a Sunday league vibe, and I would play tournaments in goal and I would play some outfield, and it was literally like the most unserious thing ever. And I really enjoyed it. I really, really enjoyed it. And the coach was like to me, oh Bish, like I work, well, he called me Nathan. No, I wasn't Bish then. And he was like, I work at South End and there's a trial day, and I think you should do it. I think you should represent it was called like the Ace Academy, and I think you should represent it as a goalie, and I think you should go and you should give it a go. I was a bit like am I good enough? Like, is it serious? Is it not? And I was like, Do you know what? What's the worst that can happen? And I went in the most electric yellow tracksuit you've ever seen. And I turn up, and the rest is literally just like what it is. Within within two years, I'd played in their first team. And it was like something that should never have happened. It was like accelerated at a rate of just crazy.
SPEAKER_03:How did it happen?
SPEAKER_02:I remember I remember signing, and I remember being like technically way behind everyone. Like I would look at everyone and be like, wow, like you can catch the ball, you can kick the ball, you hold the ball. I could just save the ball. I didn't know how, I just managed to save the ball. And maybe I'm doing myself discredit, I don't really know, but I remember it like I could just save the ball. And I remember going into like a first team sort of like drill was like an early scholar, maybe a 16. I was I was young. And I remember like Dan Bentley, Ted Smith, and Terry Mason. And the drill was like just a simple like step in and take the ball on a dive. I could not coordinate at all. And I got it wrong hundreds of times, like so many times in that one drill. And I was like, wow, I am a miles off it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm I'm not it. And I'd travel up and I'd do Tuesday nights as a 16. And then I think in the November or whatever, they approached me and was like, we're gonna offer you a scholar. And I was just like, I never thought I would get there. Like I never thought I'd be it. I did the first year completely on my own, was doing, I broke my thumb about eight weeks in. So I literally went straight into outfield again, and I was like, it's just a repeat of like everything I've done. Um, so I enjoyed it. I just wanted to be so hardworking, I wanted to give everything, and that was that was my goal, really. And then yeah, like opportunity came and I got really lucky, really lucky, and people got injured, and I just made sure that I was in every single person's face every day to say, like, this kid just don't go away. I got in before everyone, went home the latest. I remember getting into digs at like half five, six as a scholar, just thinking, like, I've got to leave the law, I've got to be the last person to leave because I'm not good enough to not do those extra bits. I wasn't technically good enough, I wasn't good enough at football to not do the extra 1%.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think that that mindset of constantly striving to do more because you felt like you were behind everyone, maybe is the reason why you were the way that you were at Manchester United in terms of how your relationship was with failure at that point?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Like I think I drove myself so crazy with the idea of like I didn't have to be better than everyone, but it had to be like I had to be, I had to be the hardest working, I had to be the most switched on, I had to do everything right. Like I'm talking everything, I had to wake up at the same time, go to bed at the same time, had to do every single one percent I would do the exact same way every day to make sure that I didn't ever slip below it. And like, yeah, even at United, like I drove myself so crazy about you have to be this, you have to be that, you have to be this. I was training with people that like it's just crazy to even like share a training ground with those people was crazy. And I was training with them day in and day out, and it was just like I'm driving myself crazy, but come on, like these are the people you're sharing a like, sharing a dressing room with.
SPEAKER_00:I know we spoke, we've spoken a lot in our own private conversations before about your time at Man United, the people that you've worked with, and you've mentioned a lot about being strict with how you are off the pitch, making sure you're doing all those one percenters. Has your perception on that changed given the people that you've worked with and how they've approached the game?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And like I used to come away and think, like, why am I the way I am when I see the way and how relaxed these top people are? The the thing that I'll take away always was like their ability to make a mistake or their ability to get things wrong was like their strong point. Like they got it wrong, and then it was like, see you later. And they'd never, they'd never need to readdress it because they knew it was just like it's a one-off, and I'll never do it again, and I'll be really good the next day, and I'll just crack on. But I would like hold on to like something I did in training four days ago. So like four days later, I'm still like, oh my god, like I've got to think of that situation again if it ever re-arose, and then it would just hold me back. But then like listening and learning from those people over time, just yeah, I think it helped me now. It helps me now more because I understand it. And like the individuals that I took things from just yeah, I'll hold them forever, really.
SPEAKER_00:It's crazy, isn't it? Because at the start of your career, you almost wish that you have the advice that you and the knowledge that you gained by the end of your career, or you know, the strong point of your career.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So that time at Man United sounds like it was a massive turning point for you in terms of developing your mindset, getting comfortable with conceding goals, having that relationship with failure, and um being more relaxed about things basically just going wrong. Going back to that time at South at South End, though, how did you cope stepping into the goal, having to deal with that responsibility, that leadership piece, that you know, that that pressure of having to deliver when it matters most? Because that's a hard transition to make, going from an outfield player to a goalkeeper to being in the first team in two years. That's a mad transition. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I I want to say I cope with it well in terms of like my mindset was different as an 18-year-old, 19-year-old, like really different. I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't pay for a car, I didn't have any bills, I didn't have anyone to look after. It was just like you've been given an opportunity you probably might be a bit early for. So, what would you actually have to lose? Like, when I was playing, I just played like I could get it wrong today, but who's who's gonna care? Everyone's gonna turn around and say, there's a kid in goal, and it was like sound, like that's all I had to be like try and prove that you're not a kid, but it was never like you've got to pay bills for your family here, like you've got to stay in that goal, you've got to put your life on it. Like, I just wanted for everyone to feel some sort of trust for me in the net, and then be like, go and have a good time. But as soon as I hit like my first loan, mindset was different.
SPEAKER_03:It was like in what way? So, was it because it was a lot more? So, as you were speaking there, it sounded like do you know what I had no responsibilities? Like, obviously, no, you got kids, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. It's a lot different, you got someone to look after, keep alive. Uh it's hard work, but then it was like I've got there's nothing to lose. I've got nothing to lose. So as I was listening there, I was thinking, right, you you're going, right? I can control the things that I can control, how hard I work, the extra percenters, what I eat, they're all the things that I can control, and there's nothing, I've got nothing to lose now. And then when you said it changed when I went out on loan, it's like now I'm a pro. Now, do you feel like things shifted for you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and like at South End, I'd cross the white line and I'd be like, if I make a mistake, again, the kid's in go. Well, kids aren't meant to be perfect, so he's gonna get it wrong. And like, because so many people call me a kid, I was like, I'm a kid, like sod it, I'm a I'm a kid, and I'm gonna play as free as I want. If I kick the ball off the pitch, and the man says, What are you doing? I'm gonna be like, Well, you're playing a kid. What would you expect? Do you know what I mean? Like, you are playing a child. So I carried that, and then Man United let me go on loan to Mansfield, and I had a really good manager. Like, Nigel Clough was top at what he did because he just made the game simple. Kick the ball as far as you can and save the ball when it needs saving. And I was like, sweet, like it's pretty, it's pretty easy. But then I sort of like all the processes I went through of driving myself like crazy sometimes, of like, you've got to do this, you have to be the hardest working. I still carried. I didn't really like hold a number one status of like relax, go and be a number one, go and like do everything you believe in, but like have a confidence in it so much that you don't need to like drive yourself insane about it. I didn't have that. So like I I'd cross the white line and then it'd be like, right, you have to be perfect today. And I have a manager that believes in me, have a manager that's asked me to do the most simple things, and let's clear this up. Like Mansfield was a really good loan for me. Had a really good time. I want to believe that I played well, I did okay, and it put me in good stead for potentially a better loan or a good loan the season after, maybe. But I still had these like beliefs of like you have to be perfect today. And I found that a 40-50 game season was it felt like it had gone on for two years because I was just like drained by the end of it. I I don't remember enjoying it, I don't remember once enjoying it, thinking, oh well, until we got to the playoff semis, but till then it was just like you've got to be perfect today, and that was a hard, hard like weight to carry.
SPEAKER_03:What's interesting to listen to there is the the language shift. So it's like, do you notice it? Yeah, and listen to it. Like, I'm just a kid. Yeah, if I get the football, that matter, it's fine. I'm just a kid. Like the language and then and then the shift to doing that to then going, oh my god, now I'm a pro. Like beforehand, nothing to lose, no pressure. Now I'm a pro. Now now I've got to be perfect. Now I've got to do this. Now I have to be like this. I have to, and it took you in beforehand. I bet you love playing for South End. Yeah. Great fun. No pressure. Suddenly, you've put all this pressure on yourself just by your perception, the way you see things, and then your language shifted to can't make a mistake, can't do this, gotta do this, gotta do this. You said the the season went on forever.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So how do you even get out of that? What's going on there? How do you how do we shift that?
SPEAKER_02:I think the turning point happened for me. Um, we went and played Port Vale away, and it was the first time I'd been bad for Mansfield. Like, it's the first time I'd made a mistake where everyone's looking at me saying, like, everything alright. Like, do you know what I mean? Like it was it was on me. And I came out of the game after, and the manager was like to me, go and take three days off. And I looked at him like what I've just had a sting card, and you've you he's not he's not said anything like as in like you've cost us, he's not shouted at me, he's not done anything. So every belief I had about making a mistake was like squished there and then because he was like to me, just go home and just take some time. Like you're just tired, like you you are still young and you're tired, gonna have some days off. And like I got in the car and I was just like what has just happened, like honestly, what has happened? And then the fans were like really good with me. So I was like, wow, like you can make mistakes, you can be less than like a hundred percent. And because the fans were so good at backing me the whole season, I was kind of like, I expected it to be like, oh, like you've cost us a game, and like they're gonna turn and they're gonna flip on me, and like it never happened. So once I got over that, it was like, right now I've got 20 games left of the season, I've been backed. I may as well just go and like try and finish the season as strong as I can. But yeah, like I just remember it still like being a until the playoff semi-final, I felt like the weight of the world was probably on me the whole season, and then the playoff semi-final came and it was just completely different. It was weird.
SPEAKER_03:So, how how was it mentally for you? How did you did it like weigh you down? Did it how did it how did it feel? Because we want to go into that because a load of keepers listening to this will feel exactly the same thing. They put all this pressure and the expectation on theirselves. Same as we did, it was like the manager before we go out. I'd go out and be like, clean sheet today, Rob. You know, I've got to get a clean sheet, and then after one minute you can see you're like, I've ruined it, it's finished for me.
SPEAKER_02:It felt like I I want to be honest, I went into every fixture tired. Like, I went into every single game thinking, like, I'm really tired. I'm really, really tired, and like I didn't know how to manage it myself. So I was also fighting with in my mind, you're not sleeping enough. I was sleeping like nine hours a night, so I was definitely sleeping, but I was like mentally exhausted of like, gotta be perfect, gotta be perfect, gotta be perfect, and like it was heavy, and like I remember like getting home from training or getting home from a game. I I actually remember it. I got we finished a game, we lost the game, and I come home, and there was like a pack of I don't know, I think it was like McVitie's, like, you know that chocolate biscuits. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Digestives. Digestives. And I was literally like, I'm gonna scrount a whole pack, my head is gone, like I'm gone. And my missus was like, just do it, like just be just be normal for five minutes and just let yourself like just chill. I was like, nah, like I can't do it. But in my mind, my mind was like fighting like heavy of like just just relax, but I couldn't, and then I'd stay up all night, I'd be like, I've crossed the team again. None of the goals are my fault, but like it was like a weight that I just created, an imaginary, false weight, and it just felt so heavy for a whole year. And again, three games left, I just let it go. It was weird.
SPEAKER_00:That sounds like a lot of it's down to identity though. Like you mentioned about when you have that label of being a pro, that's when things change from being fun to now it being a job. And all the things that you're describing about pressure, expectations, the fans, the results, all of those things are then linked to that identity of being a pro. So it's it's crazy because you're almost saying like that turning point for you was the bag of digestive sitting on the table and you're wrestling whether you can afford to eat that as a pro or not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I honestly I had moments like that as well, like all the way from South End, like leaving South End, as soon as I signed for United, it was like like this is big, like this is heavy. But like I created it myself, none of it was heavy. I wasn't playing in front of 80,000 people. I was training with the best goalies in the world, I was training the best facilities in the world, but I weren't having a good time. But I'd like created this thing, like, all right, cool, you play for United now. Like, you better be the best. You better be the best. Like, literally, and like we call you call him imposter imposter syndrome. Like, I was literally like in a building that I felt like I had no right to be in. And I was like that all the time. And then I was like convincing myself more, you must work harder to to warrant your your worthiness here, but none of it was true. I remember saying something to Darren Fletcher one day of like I can't believe I'm like, I don't remember what I said word for word, but I can't believe I'm like even training in this sort of like team in this group, and like he just looked at me and was like, that's that's absolutely not what you should be thinking. Like you're here for a reason.
SPEAKER_01:I just like deaded it off. And like left me with like wouldn't be here if someone didn't think you were worth it, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I got a mad one. I read uh not that long ago that your identity, and have you ever seen this? Identity lags behind by about two years.
SPEAKER_00:So Hormosy.
SPEAKER_03:Is it I can't remember who's is it yeah, it kind of it might be hormose. I think Chris Williamson talks about it, but he's talking about like the research about identity lagging behind for two years, who just signed for United, like but two years down the line. You you do that, have that imposter. We call it imposter, right? And one of my coaches talks about this. It's like all it means is you just feel a bit uncomfortable. Yeah, like it's the meaning we give to you. I'm an imposter, I'm gonna be I'm gonna get found out. People are gonna be like, I'm not really a goalie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not a real goalie.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, how did he get in here?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's because it's because you need evidence, though, right? Like you have an identity, but then you need the evidence to back up the identity that you've got in your mind of yourself, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, okay, so to the mic, it's getting further and further away. It's getting more digging deeper, digging away further and away. It's like, no, no, but yeah, like you say there, you it's impossible to see in Job, and then you have to have the evidence. At the moment, you haven't created the evidence, yeah. So you haven't got the evidence, you're like, I'm here, where's where's my evidence? Yeah, you create confidence from giving yourself evidence, right? But at that time, it's like, well, I haven't got the evidence, and a lot of the time say a player I've worked with always go, Well, I need to believe in myself more. And I'm like, Well, belief's created, it's you create the belief by giving yourself evidence. And this is for people listening, it's like, why don't you just do it and create the belief anyway? Yeah, we never think of it until someone comes along. Because obviously, when you're younger like us, we didn't get any help, we didn't ask for any help. Egos are massive, too big. Someone said to me, You when I was younger, you need to help your mindset. I'd be like, I've got like you probably thought you had a great mindset, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think I think the thing was Which you probably did at that time, is what you needed. Yeah, and I knew what was wrong. So I thought, because I know what's wrong, then I'll just help myself. And like, I think I remember telling you about it when I went to Mansfield, it was like all going on of like, you I've driven myself this crazy. My miss was like, you're miserable every time you come home, you're hard work, you're always tired, like, can't say anything to you, you're like mega defensive.
SPEAKER_03:Highly struggled.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like just over nothing. Over literally, like, you have the best job in the world, just go and enjoy it. And I think because I wasn't enjoying it, she was a bit like, well, I loved every inch of Mansfield. I loved the club, I loved my time there, I loved playing for the club, but like I weren't loving it as it was happening. I like look back now and I like love it. But like halfway through the season, I remember getting a psychologist. I got a child psychologist because I couldn't deal with like the adult stuff. I had so much going on in my mind, it was like all your big words not working with me. So I went and got a child psychologist that did like child gymnastics, and to be fair, she got me through really, really well. Like she got me through that patch really, really well.
SPEAKER_03:So, what did she teach you?
SPEAKER_02:She took me back to like the bare minimum of like learning as a kid, like go all the way back to a kid, and it was like just positive reinforcement of like your own things. So, like, you do something good, you're allowed to be like, I did something good today. Well, kids, as soon as they show you a painting, they're like, Look what I did, look what I did. She was like, just do it, like just go and be like, Oh, I did the really good thing today. But you don't need to tell everyone, you can just tell yourself, and as soon as I started to see like good factors of what I was doing in games, or like in training, I was like, I did something good today. Instead of like, remember what you did four days ago, or like you gotta prepare for two days away. I was like finally focusing on like that day for the first time in like months, and it was that day, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like what you're saying there, you you really simple. Did it the other day? Mindset, right? Your belief and assumptions that your behavior conforms towards. It's really simple. People don't ever talk about that when it goes mindset. Everyone talks about mindset, what is mindset? When you break it down, it's your beliefs and assumptions that your behavior conforms towards. What do you look for? If you find the good and look for the good, you'll notice it. Yeah. If you look for the bad, you'll find it. So whatever you're searching for, you'll find, right? And I went to Dara Brown last night. And he was literally talking, he was literally talking about that. And that was his whole thing of the show last night was it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's all a story, it's all the story you're telling yourself, and it all in intertwines as well. You can have this belief and you can create this, but you do something completely different. We're always looking to the future instead of being in the now. And it's like you're finding all the bad things where this woman's come along and just said, just find the good things and like give yourself a little bit of a cover on the back. It's like, for example, with Hudson, for example, right? You see him take a step, you're like, Yeah, yeah, that is amazing. Yeah, how good are you? Right? But you can you can pull one out of the top corner and go.
SPEAKER_02:Should have caught it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it was that I was doing exactly that.
SPEAKER_02:I was literally doing that, it was crazy. But the sad, I think like you look at it from more like a broader perspective. I wish I knew what I knew now, like know now when I was 18. Because, like, wow, like I go out now and I just think like I'm so cool with making a mistake because I can't I can't do it all right, like I'm not gonna do it all right, and like a big factor was you guys teaching me that, but even like rewind to like people that I'd worked with, I never knew what they were teaching me until now. So, like just coaches, but like even take coaches away, like you've worked with him, so or like you've spoken to him, gotta bring it up, like Tom Heat and like you do not know what they're teaching you until until you've left. And like he everything he taught me, I wish I was like really, really aware of in the moment. And like now, I just like I love it.
SPEAKER_03:So, what kind of stuff did he teach you?
SPEAKER_02:I think the most fit the biggest thing about Tom, I was like so intense. I was like, I want to be as fast as I can, I want to get around the goal, I want to make saves, I want to. Tom was just like, just chill, like, and he did everything. He like was the goalkeeping handbook, like technically excellent, mindset excellent, the way he moved around the goal, excellent, the way he lived, like day to day, his diet, his but he was never stressed about it. He just believed in what he was doing, and then his acceptance mentality was the best I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_00:Tell us about acceptance mentality.
SPEAKER_02:Like he just crossed the white line. I don't Tom never directly told me this, so like I'm just going off of the person that I got to work with, the person that I got to watch learn from day in, day out. It was like he did everything right, and he had his confidence in that, and he was very good at that. But when he crossed the white line, honestly, he just had this acceptance, or I felt like it was like this that if anything went wrong today, he could just deal with it, and he was just gonna deal with whatever the game brought. And like it sounds so simple, but I don't think a lot of people get to where he was with it. Like his his mind of just crossing the white line and saying, I'll be what I'll be today, and he was nine, nine. I've never Tom's always been unbelievable every time I've watched him, so I'm gonna say it must be working.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I I remember that time when me and Rob were at Wickham together. So I think you came in as a training round goalkeeper, didn't you? I was I was signed there as like an under-14. I remember Tom came in on loan, and we we speak about this now with literally everybody. We speak about acceptance mentality, but Tom said something so powerful. He said, when you put mistakes on the table, it actually allows you to then go and focus on what you want to go and do with your performance because you're no longer scared about the reality of the worst possible thing happening. And I think it's not just in goalkeeping but in life as well. When you've pre-planned, you've done that pre-mortem and you know that at some stage things are going to go wrong, like you said, it then allows you to actually just go and have fun. And listening to everything you said about your time at Mansfield, it sounds as though you were so hell-bent on avoiding failure and living the perfect way as a pro that that almost prevented you from being present in though in those in those days when you were there.
SPEAKER_02:It's crazy, and it's actually sad because like you think you've missed out on a year where you I will say I had an unbelievable time, but like you know, when you're so caught up in other things, it's not clear, like you're kind of like, Oh, I had a great time, but I don't remember most of it, or I don't remember a lot of it, because I just remember being like, I've got to do this all right. That it was just never an enjoyable, relaxing period for me.
SPEAKER_03:It was a great learning opportunity for you because I bet if you went, and this is the weird one, the weird paradox, that if I said, right, I could take that away from you, that year at Mansfield where you had, you was like, I didn't enjoy it, it was bad. I guarantee you'd keep it.
SPEAKER_02:No, if even if I had a terrible time, I'd still want it, I'd still want to keep it. Because like the amount I would have learnt from it would have been unbelievable. Like even now, like you look back and you think like, I learned so much. Of of just getting through games of like the last minute of like coming for crosses, of like, you've got to come. Having those internal conversations of yourself, I still remember those moments of like they they carry today because I'm still in a game where I've got to come in the last minute and like hopefully get the ball or make a save or whatever it is. I do remember those bits at Mansfield, but the mindset shift around those moments now is so different.
SPEAKER_03:So you said about Tom Heaton, right? And you trained with him, and I've trained with him unbelievable ridiculous as a training ground goalkeeper. You're not going to be quite it's been an emotional trip down. But you've also trained with David the Hagea. So talk to me, what's he like? Because I have no idea. You've never talked about it.
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah. David David was cool. David was so relaxed in everything he did. He was he was just a ball of just free-flowing energy, like all the time. Um nothing really bothered him. I'm not gonna, he was 99% of the time happy, a really, really good guy. He wasn't the most like intense worker, but he did his bits and he just performed, he made unbelievable saves, his hands were a joke. Like he could catch he could catch great insane things, and his self-belief was top as well.
SPEAKER_01:That he was just cool.
SPEAKER_03:Isn't it mad that the two goalkeepers you talked about they're chilled? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. So chilled, calm, relaxed. So now if we go to now, if you look at Onana, right, who might be at this time, might be leaving. Do you think there's a pressure around that Man United goalkeeper position? So why did David De Gea do so well? But then people have uh really struggled filling that position. Do you think it might be the same problem? They put this pressure on themselves, or David Haya's like meh, chilled, makes a mistake, cracks on. Why do you think there's this big thing about the Man United position that because you've been there?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's the hardest position in the world, like of like a goalkeeping position in the world. Um I think you've had some you've had uh goalies in the past that have sustained that got position for years and like excelled. And if you haven't, you've just been taken out of the team and someone's come in and done really well, Edwin Banassar, Schmichael, and obviously David, like those people have uh sustained it for a long period of time. I do think it's an incredibly difficult place to do it. I just think Andre's going through a tough path. Like there's a really, really top goalie in there. He can do it with his feet, he can do it with his hands, he makes saves, but just having a tough time. And like at that club, if you're having a tough time, I don't think like you can't be weighted on like in terms of like they can't wait, they've gotta get results. It's a huge club, there's a huge expectation. The following's insane, it's hard. And maybe it's just not ticking for him right now. But like, I feel like if you stuck, if you gave someone a longer period of time and they had time, then maybe it's different. But right now it's just it's just really difficult for him.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I was gonna say though. Like, a lot of people look at David and they see that that period of huge, huge success that he had at Manchester United. And I think a lot of that is down to his mindset of being very, very almost carefree about mistakes, about judgment, about expectation. But if you actually look back to his time at the start of his time at Manchester United, he was in and out of the team with um is it Anders Lindegaard? Ling Lindegaard? Yeah, Anders Lindegaard. So what did you learn from watching his journey unfold? Because you've mentioned about working with him, you've mentioned about his relaxed nature and how he was almost really relaxed in his approach and very accepting of things are the way that they are. You've come from a place on your own mindset journey of being very intense, being the perfectionist, having to live a very professional life. Did things then start to change when you watched the likes of David go and be the way that he was and get the success that he did?
SPEAKER_02:Um no, only because of the way I am. Like I thought I I didn't have the ability, anywhere near the ability enough to not do the work. So I think the work made me tired. And when you're tired, the chimp runs the gaff, doesn't it? Like, it's gonna tell you what's what. It is your your rational brain is not talking, your chimp is like saying you're rubbish, like do you know what I mean? All the time. So because I never like allowed myself to be that relaxed, I never sort of like recovered enough to be like, oh no, man, just chill, you'll be fine. So I was like making it hard for myself. Whereas like you see, David, like super chilled, super laid back. He loved the club, by the way. Like, on he loved the club, and he was proud to wear that shirt. And but he didn't carry it of like I've got to do everyone proud. It's a case of just gonna go out and be exactly what I am. The same with Heats, like they are outstanding at being themselves, like the best.
SPEAKER_01:Dino, David, Heats.
SPEAKER_02:Lee Grant was unbelievable for me as well when he was there. Like they're just outstanding at being themselves. And like it was, I wasn't that yet. And I wasn't, I wasn't sure of what I wanted to be, or I was sure of what I wanted to be, I wasn't sure who I was.
SPEAKER_03:Was you trying to be someone else or trying to model someone else? What was you looking to do? Because you talk about it's a mad one, you're like they're as outstanding at being themselves, yeah. And and it it's a mad one in football because a lot of the time we put on masks, yeah, we try and be like someone else, we try and fit in, and one of the key skills is authenticity, right? We're talking about authenticity. What was the authenticity? Of a lack of inauthenticity, it's simple, right? It's just being you, being comfortable in yourself, knowing that you talked about it, knowing who you are. So, and you said about getting to know who who you were. So, who who were you at that time?
SPEAKER_02:I was like a hard-working kid. We had this conversation last week, didn't we? We did. I was a good lad. I was like a really good lad. And if you said to anyone, or spish like, he's a good lad, I just didn't want to be a good lad anymore. Like, I wanted to be a good person, and people always speak with me like he will come in, he will do everything 100%. But this kid is some goalie, you know what I mean? I wasn't, I wasn't having, or I was never like, I didn't feel like I was being associated with those conversations, rightly so. I wasn't playing, and I was a huge club, and I was causing my own demise, sort of thing. I probably wasn't, I'm I'm being a bit harsh maybe on myself, of like, oh, you were like miles off it. I wasn't. I was just in my head fighting demons that I just should have like sorted out. But I didn't want to be associated anymore with like he's just a good lad. I wanted to be more than that. I want it to be like a club comes in and says, that's our man right there, like and we're gonna back it, and I'm gonna go and I'm gonna play and I'm gonna showcase what I am. But I think that's where you two come into it. I finally had to like fix I finally had to just find what I was and who I was, and then just like relaxing what I was and like sitting here now, it feels it's a it's different, it's different because that's what I am now, or like I feel like I'm I feel like I'm chilled. Like I'm just I'm actually enjoying like what I'm doing. So who is Nathan Bishop now? I'm still intense. Let's let's not get that twisted. I'm intense all the time, but I'm actually like I can cross the white line knowing like the gaff has asked me to do a job, just go and do the job, just go and have fun and do the job. And if you get it wrong, cool. Like, well done. Just get over it, like work it out, find out why it went wrong, train it out if you need to train it out, and if you don't need to train it out, just cool. Like you don't need to sit four days thinking about what you did on Saturday. Like, if you let someone down, address it. Like if you feel like you let someone down, I've got the best goalie coach right now for me, and he's outstanding. And I think like I made a mistake against Bradford, and like normally I would have carried it, I would have been like, I've let everyone down. Like, I've really, really let the boys down, I've let the gaffer down, I've let my coach, my goalie coach down. And Bezos was just like to me, like, it's cool, like, it's fine. You're gonna make mistakes, but we're gonna come through it and we're gonna work it and it's done. And I feel like that myself now. I don't feel like I have to sit and worry about things. And like some people might say, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, kids, like you're busy and that. Kid goes to bed at like six o'clock, so seven o'clock. I've still got three hours before I go to bed to think about it. I just don't. I feel confident in knowing that the next one's gonna come and just go and do what you gotta do.
SPEAKER_00:At Man United, you got managed by Eric Ten Hag, famous manager, achieved so much in the game. I remember a story that you told me when the new deal was on the table and you had a choice to make. Did you want to just be a good guy or a good lad? Or did you actually go and want to make a career for yourself? Do you want to tell people a bit about the conversation that you had with him? Because I think that'd be incredible insight for people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Eric was really cool. Eric was different. He was like, I had Oli Gonasolskar, who was like an incredible, incredible man manager. Like this man, I'd if he if he said to me, Go to the car park, clean everyone's cars, like I'd have just done it for him. Because like this guy was unbelievable. And I would like stand on the fact that he was an unbelievable manager, man manager. He understood the game really well, he had an incredible career, and I just thought, you are unbelievable. Like, I love everything about you. What a guy. And then Eric came in, and Eric was like different. Eric was a bit cold, a bit hard, firm, but like also he loved but loved differently. Like he cared about you, but cared differently. And um, I built this scenario up. I needed to go and speak to Eric about a new contract or the contract that I've been offered, and I wanted to go out and play, and I wanted to go and leave and experience new things and maybe not sign the contract. And I'd I'd sat on this conversation in my mind for a long time. I'd gone over it and over it and over it and over it. And I didn't think it was right that I I deserved to go and knock on his door. I thought I was like, Who are you to go and knock on his door? Like you're not playing, you're just a Joey, you're a sh you're a training goalie. Shut your mouth, sign a contract, or fuck off. Like, that's what I believed. And in my mind, when you believe something, you sort of like, you believe it, don't you? Like, you actually believe it's true. So I was like, I'm not gonna go see him. And then I'd built it up. I have to go and see him. I'm gonna go and see him. So two weeks, whatever it was, a month, however long, got a knock on this massive door. This door is huge. I gotta knock on this door, I'm like, and he opens it.
SPEAKER_01:Not today, shuts door. I just stood outside the door, like this big beam of wood.
SPEAKER_02:What the fuck do I do now? What the fuck do I do now? Like I literally had no idea what to do. So I was like, right, I'm just gonna walk away with it. So anyway, I was like re-re-jigged myself that night and was like, right, I'll go and set a date and I'll go and see him again and be like, right, I apologize for coming to see you the other day.
SPEAKER_01:I understand it wasn't our time. Knock on a door, it opens the door, come in.
SPEAKER_02:So come in, we sit on a like um, you know, the big oval tables, like a conference table. Sit on like a conference table and we're speaking, and I go to like tell him what I want. So I'm like, oh like I want I want to go and play, I want to go and experience like football, I want to go and be there and all this.
SPEAKER_01:And he just replied to me, how is your family?
unknown:I was like, what?
SPEAKER_01:Like, actually a bit confused.
SPEAKER_02:And I realized in that moment he he knew what I wanted. He knew what I wanted, he knew my mind was made up of what I wanted. So why was he gonna like try and convince me otherwise? He knew what I wanted, so he was like just you know your decision. He was clever like that, and like I knew that he knew that, and he knew that maybe I knew what he do you get what I mean? Yeah, I'm not gonna come back crazy, but like I feel like I get it, I feel like my decision was made in my mind. He knew my decision was made, so he was not gonna sit there and try and convince me. He just wanted to be like, relax, like, how's your family? How's this? How's that? And I left that room and I was like, I know what I want, and he knows what I want. And there was no, he was just a yeah, he was good in that moment, and I didn't have a lot of conversations with him because I didn't need to, he wasn't someone like that. He just let me crack on, do my bit, and the the one conversation I had with him, like that, I learned something in that moment of like, yeah, you got it and I got it, of what we both wanted, and you didn't need to try and convince me anything else. If you want something different, go and experience it.
SPEAKER_00:Decision making is always a hard one, like especially with your career. But I always say to people, when you have a tough decision to make in your career, the easiest way to come to the right outcome or the right choice is to flip a coin, call heads or tails, and you'll know what you want it to land on. Even before that coin's landed, you know what side you want that coin to be on. And it sounds like before you even went in that office, subconsciously in the back of your head, you probably knew that you wanted to go and experience league football, you wanted to go and play games and actually use the things that you've been working on. And he probably sensed that in you. And it's quite remarkable, really, that he knew that. Because it sounds like when you walked into that room, he knew why you were there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he knew straight away. And that's even when I dressed it up, like he he didn't take his eyes off me. He gave me 100% respect. Like he was he was just himself, like of just like a very yeah, I'll listen to what you've got to say, and then I'll say my piece. And he like listened. I felt like he took it all in. He like smiled, and then he said, How's it? And I was like, literally in that moment, I was like, I get it. You know what your mindset is, and I'm not gonna sit here and try and change it.
SPEAKER_01:That is cool. See you later. Went on tour, did our tour, and he let me leave. Went to Sunder.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember a massive shift for you. Oh, wait, every time I speak to someone, I always remember the kind of shift or a turning point. And you know what I'm gonna say, didn't you?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it depends what you've got to say.
SPEAKER_03:There's a few fair. But like, say for example, when we talked to you know, Matty Ingram. So we talked to Matty Ingram, it's the dog poo story. Yeah. So he used to get wound up every morning, go take the dog for a walk, and this as he take the dog for a walk, another man would take the dog for a walk, dog would shit the field, and the geezer would just leave it, and Matty Ingram would his chimp would come out, he'd lose his head, he'd go, he'd literally fight it all day. And it wasn't until I said, just let it go. Like, it doesn't matter. He was like, Yeah, but you should pick it up and you should do this and he should do that. I'm like, well, if you can can't deal with that, how are you gonna deal with making a mistake? If you can't deal with just a dog shitting in a field, like if you make a mistake, it's gonna eat you up. Yeah, like you got no chance. Just let it go, like accept the reality of it or go and pick it up yourself, yeah, right? And your one, so that was his one. We're gonna talk about MS. I could talk about the MS story. I'm not gonna talk about the MS story. I'll talk about well, the one that sticks in my mind is the cup of coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you you rang me up and you said, Rob, I couldn't even do your I couldn't even do your voice. Spelt coffee.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't just spill it. Yeah, everywhere.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, normally fuming.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it would have ruined my day.
SPEAKER_03:I'd be fuming. And you just and you just went, I just I just cleared it up. Yeah. And I got on with the day. And I was like, that's the one.
SPEAKER_02:It's so it sounds crazy. It's not it's not crazy though. It sounds crazy though, because you're like, come on, it's a cup of coffee, what's that got to do with a game? But like, I honestly would have let that ruin my day, like on another level. Like, it went all over my clothes, it went over my I had white trainers on, gone, done. That was then finished. Like it was lit, it was over and dripping down the counter onto my trainers. And I stood there and I just watched it drip onto my trainers. I just watched it drip and I'm gonna, I'm just gonna watch it drip. The chimp was trying to come out. I was fighting all sorts to say, like, ah, it's fine, it's cool. It's just a cup of coffee. It was like 20 minutes behind my normal schedule to get to training, and like genuinely being I get to train like an hour and a half early before like report time. So, like that 20 minutes should be like still an hour and 10 minutes early. But to me, that would have been like, What the what is going on? It was cool, it was cool. That was the first time I actually felt like that's cool.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the same time as me. I was like, that's a massive shift because it's not fighting reality because normally you'd have gone, well, it shouldn't have spilled, and that's put me behind, and that's that. And it's like it was the first time you got to that acceptance mentality. Yeah, that's the first time you was like, right, I'm just gonna accept it. There's nothing I can do, I can do. Sometimes the listen, sometimes we have things that happen and the chimp comes out. I experienced that yesterday. Doesn't mean we're all perfect. I got the brunt of it as well. The chimp does come out, but it's like a lot of time you're just like you're chill, you are chilled, you're like, uh, what can I do? What can I do? And I it's getting I like to do a little teaching point. I taught you the other day. It's just like the it's called a three hours, it's reality. Accept the reality of it, otherwise you're screwed. The next one is reframe. So reframe it in a way. Like, I don't know how you reframe the trainers. I can always buy a new pair, they were old anyway, it's fine. They were only£10 from Primark, it's all good. Uh, and then the last one is your response. So, what can I do now? So you can either react or respond. So it's like if you put that three-step, even if mistakes in any day life, and I I was doing that all day yesterday, going through like a different process, but it's like, right, right, what's the reality of it? Yeah, can I accept it? Acceptance. Yeah, or you can argue with it. It's gonna, like you say, if you keep your hand on a hot stove like that you do, it's gonna burn you. Yeah, right. And that's what you do. We make a mistake and we hold on to it for so long, and we argue with it, we bargain, bargain with it, we we get depressed, like we spiral, and then eventually the last step is getting to acceptance, right? So it's like how can you get to acceptance as quick as you can? Can you can you refresh you made a mistake? Okay, what's the learning? Right? How can I move forward as quick as I can? What's three positives from this? And then what's my what's my response gonna be? Can I work on that in training? Can I watch the you can I watch the video feedback? Because you can go into feedback, or you can go into like, what's the other one? Feedback or that's it, see? You went feedback or judgment. Like, that's what you did. You went into you went into judgment instead of going into feedback. And now what I find you're probably doing now is you're going into feedback rather than judgment.
SPEAKER_02:It's you say it, like I before, if I made a mistake or I got something wrong, I'd have been like, I can own it really well. Like I could walk in the dressing room and be like, it's on me. Like last year at Cambridge, fighting the injury sort of playing thing was the first time I did that. And like I was just like, yeah, it was me. But I wasn't quite there. Like this summer I did like a lot of work. I went over things we'd learnt a lot of times, but it was a case of like if you're gonna get it wrong, you're gonna own it, that's fine, right? You're gonna own it. But I'd also be a bit like I don't really want to watch it again, I don't want to see it again. But at the same time, now I'm a bit like I can own it, I can watch it, and I can feel alright about it. But before it was like, I'd sit there and be like, You're an idiot, you're nick like, what have you actually done? Like it's a horrendous mistake. I'd create a chaos that didn't need creating. And now it's just like you're pretty shit at the weekend, just let's get over it, eh? Like, do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Because even you're laughing about it now, even when you look at it like your your face and you're laughing about it beforehand. I bet you if I would have talked about that, take Nathan Bishop from a few years ago and you had that beast. Yeah, that I have not even seen it yet, but you told me.
SPEAKER_02:I was bad. I bet you would have grimaced if I had to talk about you going, oh and watching the clips, I would have been like, oh Nathan, what are you doing? But now I can like watch the clips, I can tell you word for word why I made the decision that I made or I did what I did, and then I can actually take things from it. But before I was just like, you fucked up, you let's not let's not ever watch it again. Like, let's just I can watch it, but I'm oh god, what are you doing? But now it's just like yeah, I did it. Can't change it. I did it. So is what it is, innit?
SPEAKER_00:But the the emotion in those situations when you're watching mistakes back, that's your brain's way of trying to protect your ego, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but that that's 90% of the time. I I said it so many times, like here and now we can talk about how I felt. And it's like being vulnerable, just be cool with being what you are, that's cool. I don't mind people thinking like, oh yeah, like that's what you had to go through to get to where you are, or like that's where you're at now, you've got a long way to go. Like to get to wherever heat is, I've got a long, long way to go. But if this is the progress to get there, or this is the progress to get one step closer to what a career he's had and how incredible he's done, yeah. I'm pretty happy to sit on the train to be honest. It's a journey, isn't it? Oh, for sure, for sure. Like it's it's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_00:We we we get that all the time, though, don't we? We get people saying, Oh, we're gonna start working on our mindset, and they think they're gonna get results instantly.
SPEAKER_02:It's hard. The MS one for us is like our talk, we won't talk about it. We won't talk about it because it's a little bit weird, but like genuinely, like to go from where I was at, maybe there to now, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like it was the need for certainty, right? So you could see it. So it was the constant need for certainty, and it was like, right, I'm gonna cling on to what I know, yeah, and what I know makes me comfortable. Yeah, but what you've been willing to do is now step into the unknown. You you've gone through a journey, right? So you're even teaching with us on our program. You're going and you're teaching, you're learning, and you're it's the constant feedback, and then you're reflecting on your own game. So all this work that you've been doing that you even unconsciously that you probably don't realise you've been doing.
SPEAKER_01:It's mad.
SPEAKER_03:It's mad. Which has now got you to a place where like you're smiling about you're finally not a prisoner in your own mind.
SPEAKER_02:Like, and that's you're playing a game now, and you're thinking, like, I'm actually I'm not falling out of rest. I'm I'm not getting ang, I'm not angry. I'm just literally playing for the moments that the team need me, and that's it. And I can walk off and I can know that I gave you everything. And it, if I was less than what you needed today, I I will own it 100% and I will fix it 100%. But it's cool, like it's alright.
SPEAKER_03:So you said there about vulnerability, right? What does vulnerability mean to you? What does what does being vulnerable mean? Do you threat around? That's mad.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what? Like, when I again at South End, like you roll it back, I'm in a senior team, and I was like, I've got to be an adult. Like, they can't see like a kid in goal, but at the same time, I was owning that kid, and then I went away and I was like, now I have to behave like an adult. So I was like never actually being like the kid. Like the kids is the kids the vulnerable side to all of us, I'd say. So I was never actually being that, and I was never allowing myself to like, all right, I'm I'm not actually feeling 100% confident about going into these boxes or this passing drill today. But like I was wearing it, like I'm probably fine. But I was I was crap, or like say I wasn't crap, and I was a bit less, and then like lads are dependent on me to be good. Because I never allowed myself to be vulnerable enough to be like, I feel a bit nervous about these, or like I don't want to let people down, I don't want to be less than great, I was I was making it worse for myself. And as soon as I drop the ego, and as soon as I was lit, it's mad because we say drop the ego all the time, don't we? As soon as I actually let it happen, of like it's you don't have to feel confident about everything. You don't. And you don't have to like mask it, you don't have to wear it. Just be like, yeah, cool, today might be a little bit less, but be all right. And then if I make a mistake, I'll own it. Like, just be vulnerable, be what you are, and that's it. And it's it, it's actually a hell of a lot easier. Like, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, from what I've learned and from like beating myself up for such a long period of time, just like you play the best, you've got the best job in the world, you play the best position in the world. Like, how often do people get to throw themselves around on the grass in the rain, just trying to catch balls or getting hit by balls? It's unreal. And you're like strikers as well. You get to bang balls past your mates like every day. Like, it's good fun, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:See, that's the kid in you there.
SPEAKER_00:Just chill, yeah. Yeah, but that this is what I mean. Like, so many people in the world of football think that everything has to be serious because of the the bravado that we put around football. Like, you have to be professional, you have to eat the right way, you've got to turn up, you know, you have to go to sleep at the right times all the time, you have to be the perfect human being. But like, like you've just said, sometimes being imperfect allows you to be perfect, but trying to be perfect causes you to be imperfect. Yeah, and it's like you talk a lot about acceptance of like how things are gonna go wrong and how nobody's ever perfect, but it's taken you this amount of time, it's taken you the best part of 10 years essentially to get to this place that you're in now. So, what advice would you give to younger goalkeepers who are gonna find themselves in your position to develop the mindset that you've got? Because like the work that you've done is in this short period of time is incredible.
SPEAKER_02:I think the It's like as a kid, I I never believed in like saving. If I got a wage, I would spend it. And I feel like now you look back and you'd be like, Well, I did five years where I could have been saving. I feel like it's the same as like learning. You're gonna wake up and you're gonna be like, We said it, you said it to me this the same day we spoke. The first five minutes of the conversation was literally like things don't come to you unless you're ready. And I feel like do it, uh invest in it, find it because it's something we overlook, and it's like I was I was scrapped, fixed on you've got to be physically insane, you've got to be ripped, you've got to be lean, you've got to eat the right things, you've got to be a joke in the gym. Sort of how you're looking now. But like none of it mattered, like genuinely, none of it, because you didn't have to be a 10 out of 10 in the gym. If you were switched on upstairs and you had it sort of semi-worked out, you were better than those boys that were like chiseled and built brilliantly. It's all a mindset, I think. And the first thing I'd say is just invest and I'd do it. It's not easy, and I'm not gonna lie, I don't enjoy some of the sessions we've had to do. But when I didn't I didn't enjoy walking around Sunderland with a weighted bag and a need that was in bits, but it was a case of like, do you know what? If I'm if I'm gonna get to where I want to be, and and you're the person that I'm gonna have faith in, you're the person I'm gonna have faith in, got to do it now, really.
SPEAKER_03:So you go when you first met him, met him in a hotel. I knew I knew what I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_02:Please bear in mind I've never met this man before.
SPEAKER_03:You're brave. I made him meet me the other side of Roka, knowing that we were gonna go to a calf completely the other side and have to walk all the way through and up hills. And I was like, right, here's your sandbag and carry it around with me.
SPEAKER_02:Please bear in mind I play for Sunderland. Sunderland are like Sunderland fans are pro-Sunderland, they are like they know everything and everyone. Yeah, yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03:And I had him carry it around straight up. And the best thing was on the way back, so I wanted to dislocate his expectations to see how he dealt with it straight away. So I wanted to be like, right, let's see how he deals with. So there's this massive hill, so he's got this sandbag, he's walked it down, gone to a cafe, he's put it on the table there. We've bumped into your goalkeeper coach while we're in there as well.
SPEAKER_02:I wanted to make a 999 for this and a bit adaptive, it would be minimal.
SPEAKER_03:And then I've only walked back and I was like, Oh, maybe we should like we were walking down the beach. I was like, maybe we should walk up the top. So I made him walk up the top, all the way to the top with his sandbag, steep as well.
SPEAKER_02:And I was like, it's nice to bear in mind the way I am, like I knew the route we came, so I was like, all right, cool, we're gonna head the route with changing the route.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, change the route, went up the hill and went, probably better walking down the beach, innit? And then made him walk down the hill again and and around, and I but what I'd done beforehand is I've made him put all the stuff that because you're you did it, you did it, you made me send it to you, didn't you?
SPEAKER_02:I did, and then you wrote them down individually. I swear to you, there was about a thousand bits of paper. Like it was in they just kept coming, just kept coming. Of everything I'd ever said to him that was like negative or like was like a weight that I was carrying. And he sat me down at this hotel. Hotel was stinking, wasn't it? Got to we got to the hotel reception and he was like, all right, you can put the bag down now. I thought, all right, cool, we're gonna shake hands and I'm gonna be on my way. Nah, we digested the bag, didn't we? 10 kilos of like just where I was at to where I'm at now mental.
SPEAKER_03:It's a really good, it has to have, I think if everything has to have an emotional thing that you remember, you probably remember that for ages.
SPEAKER_02:I think that hits hard. Yeah, and because I know people say like you carry a weight around and all this, like, and you're like, all right, cool, I get it, I get it. Like your psychology's boring, like shove it. And because I was like a bit like that, and I was a bit like it's so boring. But when I'd actually carried it around, 10 kilos, not heavy, it's not heavy into like if you're lifting daily 10 kilos on your back, walking around your home city of where you play football, my knee was hurting as well. You mentioned that, and like it I think you made me pay for the coffee as well. But like doing that and then getting there and sitting down, being like, I think we walked for easy an hour, didn't we? Yeah, and then sitting down and then reading through those things, it was like like you're actually in the bin here, like you need a bit of help. And I think it was the timing was like it clicked of like sort yourself out now.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like my head's in the bin. That's what they're explaining about my head's in the bin. I remember saying my head's in the bin, my head's in the bin. And as he was as I was talking to him, I'm just writing down all this stuff that and it wasn't even big stuff, it was like a lot of I was like, geez.
SPEAKER_02:I think Sunderland needs to be spoken about how hard I found it to be at Sunderland. And again, I'd created a I'd created this.
SPEAKER_03:Sunderland's a massive, you don't realise how big it is until you're in the goldfish bowl.
SPEAKER_02:This is where we met. So this is how we came into like 10 months into Sunderland was when I'd like, I need someone, and here he is. Unfortunately, yeah, but like to play for Sunderland, even to be a trainer, I was a trainer, I was a number two at Sunderland that year. And I remember like I had the birth of my baby going on, I was living in a city six hours from home, I hadn't seen my family in months. All the excuses you can make, I was making, I was genuinely like, I've just lost, and I felt a bit lost, and like everything familiar was gone. And then the to play for that club is it's hard. And I weren't playing in the first team, but I dropped down to play for 21s, and I just wasn't at it. I was like turning up to like Sunderland's 21s grand is a bit hit and miss, whether it was gonna be nice or it wasn't, and it was on a hill, and I was just in my head, I was just constantly in my head of like this is this is where your career's at. Like, this is where your career's at. You're gonna play 21s football, you're gonna fall out of the game, and you're gonna be nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Is that because you'd come from United?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I'd created this belief of like that the 21s games were like negative for me. The reality was they were probably the best five games. I was awful for five games, awful. Like Sunderland fans are hammering me, and I was like, rightly so, I was crap.
SPEAKER_01:But those five games was like our little bromance, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03:It was, yeah, yeah, very nice. Yeah, obviously a mutual friend partisan contact who I've been working with for years. Luke saved us, yeah. Luke saved me, yeah. But he he's a lead, his leadership's unbelievable. So the person we're talking about is Luke O'9, who's Sutherland's club captain, and one of his key skills is he will try and help you. And if he doesn't, he can't like you, he'll pass you off. But yeah, he he's been through that. He's been through that being at Sunderland that he said that it's not you say, like, for example, I think you're putting it down. Oh, it's not that like big a deal sometimes. We go, oh, I've moved to a new city, I'm playing for so this is the thing we soften and we go, oh, it's football. I should be and I've heard this so many times recently. I should be grateful. Yeah, I should be grateful, but it's like actually, like I had a meltdown moving to Liverpool, right? It was hard work moving away to a new city, leaving your family, leaving everything behind, leaving every your familiar, got to make meet new two teammates. You're a massive club, I've got massive expectations, and you only see that when you walk down the like you walk down the beach, for example. Like I walk down with Luke, and there's 50 people. Yeah, like the you can't go through Morrison's without like you got shopping bags in your hand, a kid over your shoulder, there's a kid there, and people going, Can I do selfie? Yeah, you're like, really?
SPEAKER_02:It's some club, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But it's a it's a great club, but people don't realise the expectation, the pressure. And I think sometimes like people, especially in football, it's the I'll be grateful. Yeah, be grateful, you're a footballer. And I had that with a player recently who's gone obviously, transfer transfer window, you're in the unknown. Manager's gone, you're not really wanted here, like you we don't know what's gonna happen. And he and he rang me, he was like, I'm gonna have a quick chat. I was like, Yeah, of course. He's like, I don't feel motivated. I'm like, no shit. Manager said that I don't want you, you don't know where you're going. You've got kids at school there, like your partner's going, what's going on? Where are we moving? You might be moving to the other side of the country. And he's like, You expect to be what in any other job? Like, and a manager come in and pulled you into the office and said, We don't really want you here. You're not really for us, but we've got to keep you, keep your chin up, keep smiling, crack on. Yeah, that you go straight to HR and be like, Yeah, yeah, like hold on a minute, like I don't feel I don't feel valued. And I think a lot of time we we sometimes so this is what I see in football, and this is when I speak to fans and they go, Oh, you got footballers, what they got worried about. I'm like, Oh You'd be surprised, yeah. I'd be like, hold on it, let me put let me like if you was in office and someone over you was just going, You're not very good, you're crap. You'd be you'll have a meltdown. Yeah, yeah. Now now, ten times that with 60,000 people watching you over social media, uh people watching the crowd, the expectation of family, and people don't see all that pressure that you put yourself, and they're like, Oh, you should just turn up and perform. And this is like players coming over now, come from another country, kids are still probably there, they've come over, perform. Like you're you're human. Yeah, I think that's the whole point of this, is like you're a human being, and you have you have feelings, and sometimes I think we forget that we think we're logical creatures, but we're we're feeling creatures that think, not not thinking creatures that feel. We try and process everything with logic and we go with logic, logic, logic, but the chimps go in, you're not listening to me, you're not listening to me. You try and especially in football, you bat it off. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. And it's it's so difficult and it's so hard. And I think for anyone listening to this podcast, I think you have to put yourself until you're in that position, I don't think you ever appreciate and understand kind of what it's like because you're like Sunderland here. And I think sometimes like that by you're like, oh it's not that bad. I'm like, Do you know what? Like I think you're doing yourself an injustice, especially moving to moving to Sunderland, it's come other side of it, it's freezing. Yeah, it's constantly cold and windy. It's always raining, it was probably raining when you were carrying that sandbag up and down the hill, horrible. But like from that, we've gone diverse a bit. What did you learn from that Sam that sandbag thing?
SPEAKER_02:I think it was probably the wake-up call that I needed of like um I I loved football, and I loved football for everything that it was and what I was doing and the career that it had given me, or like the short time I'd had in football. But I say I love it, but I hadn't enjoyed much of it. Like until until we got to the wherever we got to, and I remember sitting and putting the bag down, and we're getting in the car, and we're driving home, and I'm thinking, like, in that bag is everything that's ever stopped you enjoying football. Like everything, or it's everything that's ever stopped you enjoying moments. Like I remember getting to the playoff final, and like I was just like, let's just do another game, and like I really, really like let it not be an enjoyable moment, and like I really struggled like to take someone saying, Wow, like you played really well. Because in my mind, I was like, it's just a good lad. Do you know what I mean? So, in that moment of getting to that hotel and like digesting that bag, I was like, wow, like there's a lot more to that one you, your identity is not you're not just a goalie, you're not just a good lad, you're not just goalie, uh not just footballer, sorry, double whammy, but you're a partner, you're a son, you're a you're all those things. And it's like that was the that was the moment of like, yeah, you're much more than just that. So if you're gonna have a bad time on the pitch, it's cool. So we'll work it out. As long as you're doing the right things to correct it, as long as you're working with the right people when you need to, and as long as you're honest and you give everything every day, making a mistake is fine.
SPEAKER_01:Getting it wrong is fine. Being not the best is fine.
SPEAKER_04:It's cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But I wish I just learned it 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_00:Because it would have helped a hell of a lot. It's understandable though, isn't it? Like you think about a lot of goalkeepers now, because there's so much media scrutiny, everything gets posted on Instagram, your mistakes and your saves that on social media literally the moment it happens, there's massive pressure, probably more so now than it ever has been. And like the role of goalkeeping's obviously evolved over the years. But you mentioned about how your focus changed, how you went from a place of focusing on being perfect, focusing on avoiding mistakes, focusing on fulfilling that image of being a footballer, to now being much more present on the pitch, enjoying those moments when you're at Wembley, enjoying the birth of your son, enjoying your time with your partner. Do you think because of the journey that you've been on, you're now able to shift that focus away from the things that you'd associate with a job to the things that you'd enjoyed as a kid of just playing in goal? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's mad that you actually say it. Like, I'm playing for a manager now, um, Johnny Jackson at Wimbledon. He plays a style of like where he plays a style that I enjoy playing. Right? I enjoy playing, I love his system. Uh and I'm doing things in the game, and you know when you hit something, you're like, two years ago I wouldn't have even tried it. I would have just been like, it's not on. It's too much risk, too much turnover, or too much like you're not that guy. I'm not doing crazy things, I'm not doing out-of-the-world things, but I'm doing things now that I would have avoided two years ago. And I've got a goalie coach allowing me to do those things as well. So I've got two people, well, and the staff, really, really good staff, saying to me, just go, just go and do it. And to have that and to be able to be in a relaxed enough position mentally, physically, I'm not tired, feel good. I'm being asked to do something and I enjoy doing it, go and do it. It's the first time I've felt like just knocking about, like sometimes. I'm not saying all the time, because I'm saying like not all games allow you to do that. But playing for those people and finally having fun is what we all want, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:100%. That's what it is though. Goalkeepers either go into risk or they go into avoidance. So when you find that place of happiness and you've got a manager that backs you and you've got a goalie coach, and we're gonna we need to talk about him as well, by the way. Yeah, when you've got a goalie coach that makes you feel like you're on top of the world, you're always gonna play with more calculated risk. But when you maybe don't have that safety, or the manager's not 100% set on you, or you haven't got the trust in the dressing room, it makes you go into that avoidance, doesn't it? Where you start playing that yard deeper, or you don't hit that side winder, or you don't use that weaker thought, or you don't chauffe that supporting angle.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it sounds to me like the environment that you're in, the people that you're working with, particularly Bezo, because I'm I've worked with a couple of goalies who have worked with him. Yeah, it sounds to me like you're in this place in your career now where you're enjoying it, you're present, and most importantly, that's probably leading to some of your better performances.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah? I'm not I'm not gonna sit and say I've been like a well beat in the last six games. I've I've had I've had good games, I've had a bad game. Um but I have a goalie coach now who is I I've found the sweet spot in my mind, maybe, maybe I feel like I'm there, but not fully there. I'm getting there, and that helps. But also going in every day, having someone tell you, like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do it together, like you're gonna get it wrong, it's on me as well. And like every moment we've had, whether it be high or low, it's like it's on us, it's us. Like, I think like that takes a hell of a lot of weight. That's a that's a big thing to say. That's a big thing for a goalie coach to do is say, like, it's on us. And like now, even I go into training, I'm learning things, and then I'm doing them in games, and I'm like, whoa, like I did that on Wednesday, I did it in a game on Saturday, but I don't train Wednesday, so I did it on Thursday, I did it in a game on Saturday, but because I'm in a relaxed enough state in my mind to learn, I'm then carrying things out, and he's getting those scenarios into me for me to then repeat in a Saturday. Like it's the foot sounds crazy. You're gonna do this with many goalies, and their conversation's gonna be really, really advanced. But I'm talking for someone who joined into football late, who had to learn goalkeeping technically late. I feel like he's his system and his way of doing it is is massively helping.
SPEAKER_00:So, what is it about him? So we're talking about Ashley Bays, right? AFC Wimbledon goalie coach. He's worked with a lot of top goalies, a lot of goalkeepers that have gone on from Wimbledon as a stepping stone to play at a higher level. I remember the conversation that we had last week about the main reason signed of Wimbledon was because you were fed up with just being a good guy. Yeah. And the conversation, do you want to tell people about the conversation you had with Bezos, that meeting you had with him?
SPEAKER_02:It's quite funny. Like he we did it on Zoom and he answered the call. And the second I saw his face, it was just like, I'm gonna, if he wants me to sign for him, I'm gonna sign for him. Like it was mad. Only he carries a wet, he carries a phenomenal amount of credit in the bank for what he's done with several goalies, for what he's done with himself. He's topping that aspect already. But like, I rely on energy so much, like that's why me, you, like that's why we get along so well, because away from cameras, we're all weird and we get along and we do our own weird things, don't we?
SPEAKER_00:But stroking the fish, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Essentially, in that moment of like the second I saw his face, I was like, You're you're well, you're gonna you're gonna make it happen for me, or like I'm gonna I'm gonna learn the most I've ever learned from you right now in this moment. And like, if you want me, I'm I'm all on board, like a hundred percent. If you want me to chase chicken around the car park, I'll chase chicken, like if that's gonna get me to where I want to be and you're gonna help me do it, I'm gonna do it. Because like the second he started talking, the second I saw his face, I was just like, this guy's unbelievable. His energy is unmatched, his teaching's unmatched, and I think the best thing I'll say about him, and I hope he takes it around, he's just insanely honest. Like, even when I do wrong, he will tell me, as blunt as it is, you gotta do better. And having that is like, I know where the fun is, I know where the respect is, and I know where the wrong is. So I just always know where I am with him.
SPEAKER_03:You know he's not gonna bull, it's no bullshit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, straight to the like just straight to the point. And like he will say it at the top of his lungs in front of everyone, you should have saved that. But the he'll be the first man to run over the line and say, wow, what performance, or I'll make a save and he'll stand up out of his seat and he'll clap me. Like, and he's given me that like I don't have grey areas with him, like at all. And I think like we look for certainty all the time, as you said. I'm not living in uncertainty. Like, if I've been bad, he'll say you've been bad, but we'll fix it. And if I've been good, he'll be the first to say, like, well done.
SPEAKER_00:So, Bish, obviously, recently you went viral on Instagram for the save that you made against Dave McGoldric at Plough Lane. Talk to us a little bit about that scenario, what you saw in that situation, and what was just going through your mind really when you went clambering across the goal and just threw your body in front of it.
SPEAKER_02:I think it was like a really weird one. Like, again, going back to Bezo, like his detail is insane, like on another level. And we trained that situation that week in excess of 10 times. Like, I could like see the situation. He said, This moment is gonna happen. He said, But then the moment's on you, whether you you deliver what you we've been through or not. And like, it might be too good, it might be savable, it might, but the moment will happen. And I could see him, like, he took the touch and I knew that he was gonna deliver. And it was like in that moment, I was like, I've I've seen this, so I'm just gonna give myself the best possible chance at trying to save it. And if he scores, he scores, fair play. Like, you've just been outclassed, they've scored, done. And I think like I went just with full intentions, 100% head turn, go. And because I'd gone all week, I just felt like I'd give everything and hope it would hit me and get hit. Sometimes you're just lucky, you know what I mean? Like it felt like that. It felt like that in that moment of like you can get lucky sometimes. And I'm not gonna say like I intentionally swung my hand about to save it, but I went headhand, knowing that those moments I'd prepared for that week.
SPEAKER_00:That's the thing, though, isn't it? Like in in football, a lot of people see the outcome, which is what you guys deliver on the weekend in front of all the fans, but they don't see the day-to-day, week to week building up to those moments. So you mentioned you did loads of work with Bezar around like cutbacks and low crosses leading into that game. Do you think that those moments in the week give you that evidence to then go and deliver in the games when you see that picture?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think seeing I I do really well off scenarios, like I could learn something off of just watching, watching, watching, watching, and then I feel like I could give it a semi-good go. Like if I tried to do it. Seeing Bezos, first we get the footage, so I see the footage, I see them do it in the footage, no problem. They do that, that's the way they play. Then I go outside, I've got someone with a left foot smashing it across the box at really close but high intense tempo, and I'm getting after it, and then it builds into the game, and it's like, wow, like he's seen it, he's delivered it, and then we've just got to try and deliver the best we can.
SPEAKER_03:So you had a worldie that week, and you got the acclaim, and everything was great. I saw it, I was like, yes, fish. Yeah, and then the next week you made probably the worst game I've ever had in football. So you had the worst, why saying I've never seen it. Moment, moments, moments, moments, moments. Moments, let's, let's, yeah. You had the the worst moments that you've had in football, so you didn't do so well. How do you contrast like that high to the lower? And how do you how do you deal with that? How do you deal with the mistakes?
SPEAKER_02:Um I just think don't get hired, don't get too high, don't get too low. It literally was gonna be you were gonna get it wrong at some point this year, you're gonna get it wrong some point every game. Like you're gonna get it wrong. And it was a case of I got caught in in between. A cross came into the box, and if you watch the clip in real slow mo, I go with two hands and I have full intentions to catch the ball. The contact changes, the ball's spinning. So as the ball's moving, the contact's like changing of where he's gonna hit me. So my hand's here, and then I'm like open hand, and then I'm like, I'm not gonna catch this. The contact's different now. So then I go to punch it, but as I'm like in the air, I make that decision. So because I haven't made a direct decision of catch or punch, I don't do either that well. So it like comes off the back of my hand and they score. Obviously, do what goalies do, you try and claim foul. Do you know what I mean? Like done. Second half, the same thing, sort of like a ball gets slipped down the channel, defender defends it, and he swings his body round. And I can't make a decision where I've got enough space to clear out of play, or I have to just go and try and clear it back into play. I just make I make a decision, stick with it, ride it out, go as hard as I can.
SPEAKER_01:It ricochets around like a pinball machine and they score. But it's like you have a week like that before, you have a week like that the week after. If both are okay, like you're allowed to play well, you're allowed to play badly. Just don't follow it up with more bad decisions. Just it's all it's cool, it's fine.
SPEAKER_02:Just brush it under the rug. Don't get too low now. You've had your high, you've had your plaudit, don't get too low, don't take the battering bad because it might come, and if it comes, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01:It's cool. Just work with it, fix it, correct it, learn from it, get rid of it.
SPEAKER_00:I love what you said there about not getting too high or not getting too low, right? Because consistency comes from when body and mind are in connection all the time. So over the course of a season, you're gonna have lots of highs, and you're also gonna have lots of lows. But if you let the highs become too high, the journey down is always really big. Oh yeah. And if you let the lows become too low, the journey back up to medium is always too hard.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So how did you manage that? Because obviously you're getting loads of applause on social media, people are commenting, people are praising you to the end of the earth. And then on the flip side, maybe not Wimbledon fans, but there's definitely someone, some dickhead out there that's going, How's he done that? How do you manage those riding emotions when one week you've got everyone praising you, and then the very next week you're the talking point in the negative light? Just accept it.
SPEAKER_02:I'll change it. Got it wrong. I'm really sorry I got it wrong. I genuinely mean that. Like I don't intend to cross the white line and be anything less than perfect. I've got it wrong. Um I I literally cut finished the game, the full full-time whistle went and was like, you have to get rid of that now. Because you can't you're not gonna get back that 90 done. You're gonna get you might have someone say something to you, just accept, just accept it because you are not gonna change it. And if your missus gets home and looks at you like everything alright, you're a miles off it, so just accept it. She wouldn't say that, but I'm just saying, like, whatever comes, just accept it, it's cool. It is fine. You're gonna live, you're gonna breathe, you're gonna wake up, and you're gonna go again. I couldn't change it, I knew I couldn't change it. And like I knew I was in my heart, I was sorry, and I got it wrong. And like I hold my hands up, I accept it, I knew it was me, and it wasn't anyone else, and it was cool.
SPEAKER_03:So you talk about that certainty, uncertainty. So if we go back to last season, you it's a Sunderland, then get a loan to Wickham, and you're in the team, you're expecting to play, right? There's your expectations, right? Talk about expectations, and they always they always screw you, right? You're like going to Wickham, the manager the manager wants you, he's desperate to get you in, get you in, start playing, and then injury happens, right? So obviously, really bad injury worrying you keeps playing through a really bad injury, and then you're out for literally the whole season. So, what happened, and then how did you deal with that? Because it's one thing that a lot of footballers struggle with, goalkeepers, any footballer struggle with injury being at the team. Yeah, you've gone from playing, having certainty to massive uncertainty, like you're not significant anymore, you're kind of isolated, you've your identity's taken a massive hit. If you're not trained as well, then it's even worse. So, how did you deal with that time in your life where you're like, right, I'm I'm getting games, I'm playing, suddenly, bang, it's taken away like a massive test for you.
SPEAKER_02:I thought I'd deal with it really well. I've never been injured. I've I think I missed like one sick day in my whole eight years of being a professional footballer, and I thought I'd be like, Oh, do you know what? It's alright. Like, we've been working together. I thought like I'd get over it. I just didn't. Like, I I got over the injury, like, let's we're a year on now, so that I'm fine. But like I played the first game at Wrexham away, so I thought I was gonna have the fans try and mash me up for what happened with Paul Mullen. So I carried that weight already, and I was like, oh god, like I wasn't excited for my debut for Wickham, but regardless, got through, game was fine. We lost. Um, second game, 30 minutes in, playing Birmingham, and we knew Birmingham were gonna be really good as well. I'm coming out to play ball in my left foot, like the most routine thing I'd ever done. I hit the ground on the way through, and it sounded like my whole soul plate had ripped off my the bottom of my um boot. I looked down at my boot, I'd like stumbled back into the box, and it was it, but like not where you're saying, like, wow, like what's going on. I looked down and my soul plate was fine, and in my mind, instantly, like the game was going on at the other end, I was like, I I think that was I think that was your ankle. So I was like, anyway, whatever. Mobility through the game, this was in the 30th minute, mobility through the game is getting worse. And I was like, nah, surely I haven't done my ankle because like I'm still getting past back, I was still playing. But one thing that kept happening, every time I got a pass back, my knee kept like rotating in. So I kept like falling over, essentially. I wasn't making like clean connections, but because I couldn't balance. And then comment at halftime, the manager really good at me, was like, listen, what's going on? Are you all right? And I was just like, and the goalie coach I had at the time, Lee Harrison, he was my first ever goalie coach at South End. And he looked at me and was like, You're not all right. And he knew me better than anyone, and he knew I was like in bother. It started to hurt at half time. And I was like, nah, I am not for any reason having anyone label me as like you just quit. Like when it gets tough, it quits. Or these are the stories I was making up in my mind of like, you can't come off. You're not leaving on a stretcher. So if you're not coming off, like are you all right? So I'd convinced myself, like, finish the game. I was moving bad. Like, I was moving really bad. I was praying that nobody gave me a goal kick. Uh the lads, I hadn't told the lads that I was in a bad way. So like I still wanted to like root, be there for the boys. I still wanted to like be on it for the boys. I couldn't do anything. And then the day after, we had a Tuesday game. And they're like to me, this is a Sunday. Are you how you feeling? Are you good for Tuesday? And I was like, I'll be sound for Tuesday, like no problem. Uh really like believing, hadn't stepped out of bed yet. Got out of bed that morning and done. Like the ankle was done. What swollen? Got like everything you could imagine, like in terms of like using that foot, it like gone. The scar's not either the scar's pretty big, but like I ruped, I've ruptured the whole deltoid, and yeah, like the inside of that ankle is just like gone. And then I went and saw the surgeon. The surgeon was like to me, You're gonna need like a full reconstruction of that area, you're gonna need a fake tendon, all this. And I was just like, right, okay. Went home. Was like to my missus, well, what are we gonna do? What do you mean what you're gonna do? It's like, should we just sack the op off and strap it and just get through? That's what you said to her. Yeah, she she's she literally like to me, like, are you are you all right? Like, what are you even thinking? Like, you're not thinking clearly, like you're you're you're being crazy. And I was like, No, like you're fine. She's like, You'll ruin your career if you do that. And then yeah, just like opted in for the surgery, and the surgeon was unbelievable. Like, he made jokes that I didn't find very funny, but like he made like proper surgeon jokes. Like what? He's just like, Oh, I remember he was like, How are you getting home? And I couldn't walk. So like I come on crutches, got an Uber. I said, like, I'm gonna get an Uber to a train station. He was like, You fucked it that much anyway. You may as well run home. At that time, I was looking at him like, You can't be serious, you cannot, but he was like genuinely like I'm gonna fix it first day anyway. So do what you want to do. And then yeah, um, I had to really, really accept that I've been injured. Like it took a took a lot, and I was on the sofa for like two weeks, leg elevated, like couldn't move. And the demons like you're just telling yourself like you're gonna be back. One surgeon said to me 16 weeks, one said nine. So I had said to myself, nine weeks done, I'll be on the grass in nine. For we spoke about it before, and I remember coming back at nine weeks, being on the grass in nine weeks. I was nowhere near it, but I was never allowing myself to go back in that physio room. Like the physios knew I was nowhere near it, and I think like my my self-core was like, I have to be back in nine weeks, I have to go and play for Wickham again. And because I like rushed myself back, I remember playing against Aldershot. I was just like awful, kicking the ball, like just felt horrendous. I had pain that was like insane, but I was like, nah, like I've been given this opportunity to play for Wickham. That manager took a chance on getting me, not letting no one down, ended up costing myself a lot more than I probably needed to, and then ended up having an over up anyway.
SPEAKER_00:That's expectations, though, isn't it? I think whenever anyone comes back from long-term injury, they have this perfect vision in their head of what that return to play is going to be like. And it normally involves coming back two, three weeks early, and they think they're gonna walk into that first training session and feel like a million dollars. And some players do go through that. I call it the post-injury bounce. You have those first couple of sessions and you're like, oh yeah, I can move around the goal. I'm still catching stuff, I feel all right. Then you go into like a training game, a 21s game, and you realize you're fucking miles off it. Yeah, because the speed, the decision making, the pictures, you it's almost like you're having to relearn how to play the game. So I know we've spoken about this many, many times, but that all the shot game at it was at Harlington, wasn't it? Training ground, new training ground, or temporary training grounds. Going into that game, first game back after injury, what is going through your mind stepping onto the pitch after that many weeks out? I mean, I won't. I weren't moving good.
SPEAKER_02:I'll be honest. Like, I weren't moving how I wanted to be moving. And I already had a doubt in my own strength, my own ability of like moving. So when you doubt how you're going to move in a game, come on. Like, you know that it's probably too early or it's not. But was I I was never going to tell anyone. Like that was remotely even doubting my ankle. And I remember taking a goal kick, the goal kick. I made saves in the game and like I felt like in the game, but it was like I was taking a goal kick and trying to play out. And like the ankle itself was fixed. I knew it was strong, but like I was doing things to avoid involving it. So like even like taking a touch on my left foot, I would like to shimmy my whole body round to my right. My my then first touch had to be like pretty exaggerated to get round it again to clip it. I'm doing things like that. I gave the ball away, they got a penalty, they scored. Obviously, first game back, no one's expecting me to be a well beater. Everyone was fine with me. Like I remember taking goal kicks, like hitting it down the middle, like driving it really flat, getting really good distance. Center back turns around to me and was like, is your radar off or something? Like, what's going on? Like, the man's over there. Like, mate, I'm trying. Please, please. So then, like, in the game, I'm dealing with is sore. Now people are like realising like you're not at the races. Like, what's going on? And then, yeah, like I remember coming off, feeling a bit devastated, didn't get back in the team, wick on a flying. Um, and then went online to Cambridge and sort of started well, and then I re-whatever, whatever happened, just re-went wrong, and then the voices crept back in, and the performances got less and less and less. But like, I tried to like pretend I was in a good place, and like I would have done anything to be in a good place. And the Cambridge fans were really good at me, but like probably wasn't in the place I should have been in. I was refusing to kick, I couldn't kick from my hands. I couldn't. Because every time I like planted, twisted, ankle was done.
SPEAKER_03:In hindsight, now what would you have done differently? Would you have shifted, would you have shifted your time coming back? So like when players usually work with me and they go, Oh, I'm 12 weeks, I'm like, well, let's go 15. Yeah, 20. Let's go, let's go 20. Because if you go, it's not 12 mentally, like it's just shifting the expectation again. Because the reality is you're gonna have setbacks, things are gonna go wrong, you've got to try and get back in the team, your expectations are right, I'm just straight back in. Like, it's not gonna happen. And then as we're out of the team, I always think a player goes through some sort of like an athlete, you know, a player goes some through like a depression, and it's really hard. And then obviously you have that thing, can't tell anyone.
SPEAKER_01:It's a rage.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the stories. I've had it with I mean with Luke, right? And George, he's wife ranked me. It's like he's really he's not telling you, he's keeping it quiet because you don't want to be like, well, really struggling. You don't want to have that, yeah. I don't want to put it on anyone, like it's it's only an injury, everyone else's got their the stories you tell yourself, and it just and then it builds and builds and builds and builds, and then at home, snappy with the kids, snappy with your misses, and it all spills over. So, how was you emotionally? How did you react emotionally to the injury?
SPEAKER_02:Mine was like rage. Like, I remember just being always angry, like I was really, really angry, and like at Wickham, I remembered like training, and I was being like everything that I wasn't. Do you know what I mean? Like I'd slipped back into like, all right, I'm gonna try I'm gonna be a training goalie for this club. Couldn't go back to Sunderland, I was at Wickham. Get your head around that first, got me head around that, and then in training, I was like really, really angry. Like I was training well, I was doing the right things, but like I just remember like my energy has to be like channeled here and I have to channel it right because one, I don't want to fall out of people, two, I want to be a good lad. I want to be a good pro. I want people to still think, right, he's not playing it, he's not throwing his toys out of the pram, he's still at it, he turns up every day, he gives everything. So I was channeling it in like I just wanted to destroy myself. Like I was throwing myself around the goal as if it was just like fuck, I don't care what happens. I don't care. I did not care what happened, and like it probably was my it was my own detriment. I was even more tired, even more angry, even more fed up. I still wasn't playing. So it's just like it just was just Tom that blocks of just getting worse and worse and worse. That's coping.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's coping, right? Because you're not gonna get the release.
SPEAKER_02:And I couldn't, I couldn't chat, I couldn't take that energy home. That energy was like toxic energy for myself. I would never have been toxic to anyone. If you asked me to drive you, or if you asked me to pick you up and give you more, give you more, I would have given you everything. But the second it was just me, it was it was internal, all of it was internal. And then obviously, like going to play again, you go and play and then you internalize it more because you're now playing with the pain that you should have got fixed. And then you didn't play at Wickham, so you should have got it fixed then. But because you're stubborn, because you want it to prove a point, because you want it to be something you didn't need to be, a hero essentially, you know, fucked and you gotta live with it. So yeah, it was mad. It was mad. I remember at Cambridge like playing out or trying to like pass the ball to the lads, or like kick. The pain was like insane. And I was just like, the fans are getting annoyed at me because I was missing passes because I was like changing my technique, I was allowing my knee to like fall out so I could like miss the pain through the ankle. I don't remember the fans going like oh like behind the goal. And I'm like, I get it, I'm sorry. Like, but they didn't know, and they didn't have to know. This was my because we were in a relegation scrap as well. I caused even more problems by telling myself, like, you can't miss games now. If you miss games, it looks like you're jumping from a sinking shit or like from a team that are struggling, and you it's your it's your fault. Like you're bottling it, you're you're coming out of something that you you have to fight, you have to be there for those boys. And I didn't want to be the person people looked at and was like, jump shit when it was hard. You didn't want to get labelled. Nah, and I was I would have given you everything, I would have given you everything. I just wasn't good enough like in that moment because yeah, I was too focused on not letting people down, not letting that club down. I would have done anything to keep them up, like anything, but I wasn't in a physically good enough position to keep them in the league.
SPEAKER_00:It's ironic though, isn't it? Because by trying not to let people down, you put yourself through more pain and then you ended up letting them down anyway. Yeah, for sure, yeah. In in a hero complex kind of way. Yeah, it was it was mad.
SPEAKER_01:And the you you it's all stories, it was all stories.
SPEAKER_02:Because, like if if a public tweet went out and was like, Nathan Bishop has been sent back to Sunderland, he's due to undergo another surgery. No one would have battered an eyelid, they would have just been like, right, kid got unlucky, had another injury, done. Instead, I was like, nah, not having it.
SPEAKER_01:I have to be there for these people, and the club have given me a chance when no one else did, and I want to repay them.
SPEAKER_02:Just all stories though, none of it was true. Literally, or not a single bit of it was true. The fans wouldn't have cared if I went back. They would have just been like, Thanks for your service, see you later.
SPEAKER_03:So, what have you learned from all that experience now that hopefully you'll put into practice? Yeah, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think the one thing I will say is like the the injury basis, take the time. Like your manager wants a hundred percent of you. He doesn't want he doesn't want 60% of you that wants to get back early. He'd rather he might not want to wait, but he'd he'd be happier waiting, and he will wait. And when you're back in, when you're fit, you're in you're in a better mindset to fight to get back in the team, you're in a better mindset for the team, and you're a better person for the team. Just wait. And also, like, you're not gonna play at one point in your career. Don't don't channel it the way I channel it because I like internalized self-destruction, but was giving everyone every inch of me, and I was taking home everything, and I was mad.
SPEAKER_03:So you're it's like the cup analogy, you're got your cup, you're giving it to everyone else, but the reality is you're empty.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was trying to make shooting drills, like the best shooting drills on earth. Like, I was like giving it to people like it's me via you now. Come on, like, and that was my like everyday like sinking. That was like giving me the thrill that the games would have given me. But yeah, it wasn't actually for me. It was I was giving it to other people, and then I was going home and it was like a nightmare at home. I was just miserable. And because I don't, I'm not like a big bundle of energy at home, I'm pretty like chilled at home. I was just hard work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, mad. You mentioned that game that you played at Wickham against Wrexham and how going into that game you felt an overriding sense of maybe pressure and some judgment given what had happened to Paul Mullen the previous season. How did you tell people about your side of that situation? Because I know it must have been very difficult given the following that Wrexham have and you know the owners coming in and the hype around that football club. How did you cope with that situation with Paul Mullen? How did you process it? How did you come to that place of acceptance that you you speak so much of?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I'm really like I wasn't there then. I wasn't in any place of acceptance when I was at United. Like, I wasn't there, I hadn't developed that yet. This this happened and I found it really difficult because if you knew me as a person, you're not and I never want to hurt anyone. Like, if I see a spider in my house, I have to pick it up and put it outside. Like, everyone deserves a chance at life, everyone deserves to be left alone and have a good time and all that. Yeah. So I would never intend to hurt someone. But what happened in that moment was like, I got the decision wrong. Fair enough. Oh, I mistimed the ball. Fair enough. My decision relied solely on the fact that he is one of the most dangerous people in the box with the ball at his feet. And if he's got time and space, he's gonna score. So my decision was can't let him get in the box. So I'm gonna have to either win the header, I didn't want to commit a foul, like that's the last thing. I just literally thought I have to meet him outside the box to win the header. One, I missed him the header, and two, I really hurt him. And I would do anything to not hurt him. Do you know what I mean? Like it was the worst thing ever. And I think like in the moment I'd hurt him. After that, I was kind of like more worried about him than the game. Like, all I cared about was him, and was like, Oh, I wonder if it's okay. He was sound, he was like really, really sound. Messaged him after game, checked he was alright, went to their dressing room, all that. I was getting battered by them and obviously rightly so angry. Like, this is their star number nine. And things went out, and the night was long, like it was long because everyone was fuming, like, rightly so. We're in America, Rex and huge over there, their following was unbelievable. And um, yeah, my DMs were mad. Like I was just talking about like what people wanted to happen to my family and like to me, and like it was just it was one of those things that I was like, listen, I understand his football, but like I never truly meant to do any harm. Like I just knew who I was up against and how talented he was, and I just didn't really want it to end up in a goal, so I'll try and win the head up, mistimed it, got it wrong, done. But I wasn't in a place to accept that. Like, I was kind of like, oh my god, I've got a wrong, every right. Like, I'm out there sending flowers to his missus. Like, I just felt so bad that I wanted to do everything to make it right. And like Ben Foster come and found me after the game and was like, You're a goalie, like it just happens. And I I like try to look at it through his lens, but like that's someone that's accepted. They play the position, things like that are gonna go wrong. You can be sorry, but you can also accept like it's the position, it's the game, it is what it is. I just couldn't. I'd hurt someone and I never wanted to, and just couldn't get me ahead around it. And then, like, going into Wrexham after we'd done work together, and like I was like, listen, I'm gonna get battered today. I I would probably even expect someone to even the score, catch a naughty elbow on a corner or something like that, but it wasn't like that.
SPEAKER_03:But did you get battered or was it as bad as you're expected? Because you had you said it about expectations.
SPEAKER_02:You expected to go to Wrexham and get some from the fans, and every time I touch the ball, I just got booze. And like, fair enough, like rightly so. And um yeah, I haven't played against Paul Mullen yet, and hope is sweet. Sound he was sound, like genuinely, he was really sound, and um, yeah, it's one of those things that when you re-watch it, it does look bad though. It looks horrendous, and you're kind of like, What was I thinking at the moment? But I still remember the decision being so like in my mind of if he gets it down in a box, it's curtains, he'll score.
SPEAKER_03:So, did Ryan Reynolds message you? Yeah, that was weird, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Reynolds in your DMs, like no, he he was really he was really, really light sound, and he put a post out like it was it was a bit rash and it caused a bit of like more friction my end. And I think he again is one of those people that probably I don't know him, never gonna know him, but like in that moment he was kind of like, I feel like I've brought more problems than needed to be brought. So he DM me on Instagram and he said, like, we we understand after getting to know who you are and like what you're like as a lad that you never intend to do, sound like that, and you're always welcome in Wrexham, and basically, like we fully get it, and it's fine, it's part of the game, and I just want to make sure you're alright and pretty much like that. And honestly, like I didn't want anyone to know. I was kind of like, as long as you as long as you're cool with it, it's fine. Like, as long as people know that I didn't want to hurt him, it's cool.
SPEAKER_03:I think people, when they listen to this and they understand what you're like, they've got no way in a million years that you'd ever intend to hurt someone.
SPEAKER_02:And this is something that happened like two, two, three years ago. I got a DM the day it released on Netflix from someone saying, like, be prepared today. It's coming out, so people are gonna re-see it. People are gonna be like, What is this dickhead doing? And I'm like, I'll probably have to wear it again, man. It was cool, it was honestly cool. I think more of it was like more my family. That you got your family five hours ahead of you, who's in the States, five, six hours ahead, seeing everything unfolding when they're waking up. So I'm kind of like trying to pre-warn them whenever they can't, this is what they're waking up to. It was everywhere TikTok, YouTube, like, and it was just in my face, like Sky Sports just kept coming. I literally got on my phone and my boys be texting me, like, what are you doing? Like, come on, man, I don't want to see it. It's not even like something like I ever want to revisit, but it has to be, it's part of the game, innit? And the decision I made in that time, I still stand on that. He is so dangerous in front of goal that I didn't want to get him 1v1 with me. So I had to try and win the header. The ball was there to be won. I just am not as strong as him and he beat me to the ball.
SPEAKER_00:That is the mad thing, though, isn't it? The mad thing is that football is such an emotional game, and people are so connected to these clubs and so connected to players. But if you strip away everything from the game, it is it is just a game when you think about it. But because you add everything around it, one small decision like the one that you made can snowball into something as massive as the ordeal that it did.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I remember Phil Parkinson's, he was like, he'll never be welcome in Wrexham, and he'll never and I don't want to see him after the game. And I was like, wow, like I thought, I thought I'd sort of like I thought I'd get a bit more time to be like, like, I'm really sorry, or like go and see him or whatever. But like he made it clear, like, you've really fucked me off. Don't come and see me.
SPEAKER_03:He's a very emotional guy.
SPEAKER_02:No, but not take take the emotion completely out of it. Until I got home, I didn't really realise I've actually just taken your number nine on a season. You're you're going up, likely, you have an unbelievable team, that's your number nine, and I've gone and hurt him. Like you're without him now. So, like in the in the moment, I was like, Well, why are you being like that? Like, I didn't mean to, but at the same time, I've his livelihood revolves on his players playing well, his family rely on his players playing well, and I've just gone and fucking taken your one of your best players away. That's crap, innit? So like I had to then get my head round of like, it's not you. He's not angry at direct, he's angry at you, but he's angry at the scenario as well, the situation. Situation is his best player is now got damage ribs, that a punctured lung, like whatever it is, he's not gonna play. Rough, innit? Shit. Before the season, why are you even thinking to tackle like that before the season? But my mind was under Eric Ten Hag, there's no friendlies. So I want to win the game, I have to try and win the game. His his philosophy was there's no friendlies.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm going in with like a we must win the game, I must win the ball. I got it wrong. I was really lucky not to get a red card, it was bad.
SPEAKER_03:Now you've gone to Wilwooden, and it's like, right, what what is Wimwardden to you? It's like a fresh, fresh start kind of thing. So how's it been? And what what's your thoughts at the moment?
SPEAKER_02:I think like I needed to find a home. I needed to find somewhere where I was like, you can now give your energy, you can give your all to this club. They're gonna give maybe give you a go. You've got to work your way in, you've got to play for this club, but or you want to play for this club so you get an opportunity. But just be here, just be in this moment, just be with that club. The fans they they love goalies, or like they've backed goalies in the past, and like you've got Bezo, you've got a manager that plays a style you want to play. Just go and find the home, just go and relax, enjoy your football. You're an hour down the road from where you were born. Like, this is home, this is a good place to be. Just have a good time, give it a go. Go and play for people that want to see you play. And it's honestly like I've loved it. Like, it's been seven weeks. I played six games. I just I've loved every second of it. And I feel like I've loved it because I've I've been there, I've actually lived it. It's the first time I've lived it. Like I've lived those moments, and like I can remember, I can remember what I did six games ago. I can remember a save I made, I can remember me punching in my own net. Like, I can remember those things because I'm enjoying those moments. I've loved it.
SPEAKER_03:That's amazing. That's what you want to get to, isn't it? It's like, do you know what? Even terrible moments, still loved it, still something to learn from. And it's like you said that we've gone around this podcast and you've talked about the start of being the kid, but you've gone back to before any of your identity. I'm the kid I'm just a kid, I'm a kid's kid, but you've gone into that, I think, being a kid again and exploring and playing and having fun. And you've got that next chapter of having another kid very soon. Well, you have that fun again. More sleep with this night as well. Let's see if that happy Nathan Fisher's still in there when he's having no sleep. That kid like he's like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. So no, I think it's amazing. It's been amazing watching your journey, especially being KP watching your journey because we're emotional. He said at the start, I'm like emotionally invested now. I'm emotionally invested in you as a person because you said about I don't care about you as a footballer, but the main thing is you're a decent human being.
SPEAKER_00:You just want to see good people.
SPEAKER_03:Good people, that's what it is, and that's what you are. You're a good person. You're a good lad. Thanks. Shit goalkeeper. I can say that good no, I don't mean it.
SPEAKER_00:You've got the fist going, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Just testing him. Just see that there. But it it's about yeah, just like a lot of times, yeah, you're a footballer, yeah. You play football, it's your job, it's a great job. Yeah, but underneath that, more than that, you yeah, you are you are more than that. Yeah, like someone you'll I'll speak to. If I had a problem, I'd ring you. Same thing, you'd ring me or KP, and we can just chat and be normal people, yeah. Yeah, we're not normal.
SPEAKER_02:Well, definitely not normal. Talk about fish steaks, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we don't want to be normal. Someone says to me, you're normal, I'll be like, No, I wouldn't be like, Why don't you like me? Normal, Callum said that to me, right? You're not normal, like my stepson. He's like, You're not normal. I was like, You're too right, I'm not normal. Normal, do you know what normal is, son? And I went off on a rant. This is normal. I'm not normal. Don't don't aim for normal. And the whole point of that is normal, especially if a boy's like, fit in, just fit in, be I'm cool with being different.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I think we're all cool with being like I wouldn't say I wouldn't even say I'm different. I would just, I'm just cool. I'm just cool being Bish. Just Bish, yeah. Like Bish.
SPEAKER_03:Bish is a bad guy.
SPEAKER_02:Bish is a bad guy. Nah, he's a nice guy, Bishop.
SPEAKER_03:So just finish off, right? You've obviously been through this journey with with us, and you've learned a lot. What's the biggest thing in mindset? Because it's called Beyond the Box as well, mentality. What's the the biggest thing you learn if you can give your younger self a bit of advice that you needed when you were younger, which is probably to people listening, what advice would it be?
SPEAKER_02:Um I'm gonna go ask two people's advice. Uh, I think because we mentioned him already, he deserves a special mention of like learn to accept like when you cross the white line, when you go to training, just learn to accept that whatever's gonna happen, be who you are, deliver what you deliver, and be confident in what you do, and just be an just be a good guy with it as well. He was the best guy, and he he taught me he taught me that. And I'm sad that I didn't learn that like five when I was with him, I was sort of accepting it, but sort of never like actually fully taking it in. And yeah, I wish I learned that. And I think the other thing would be like what you would say of like just be a hundred percent who you are. Like, mindset's this, mindset's that. You can learn the ins and outs, and you can learn the technical features, and you can learn that the gap and the gate, like there's hundreds of things you can learn in mindset, but like you will never truly get there if you if you just deny who you are, or you don't truly be just who you are. Like, be cool being vulnerable, be cool being you. If you don't like people and you don't like speaking to people, just be that guy. You don't have to be everyone's friend, like you just just be what you are, and I think it's a hell of a lot easier being what you are than something else, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's a lot less energy, isn't it? Yeah, being being less.
SPEAKER_02:It's a much better place to be in. And I think like as well, we're going off on a tangent, but like I think you always taught me at the beginning that it was like you don't have to do more to get more. Doing less gets you more. Letting go, doing less, doing the things you actually need. 1% more is I find that you've got all your little one percents that you add in, your nutrition, your recovery. That's fine. You do those things, but you don't have to go and be a well beater at like uh the strongest in the team.
SPEAKER_01:You don't have to just do what you do, and that's enough. You don't have to do insane things to be better.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing. Nathan Bishop, thank you very much. Thank you.